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10 reasons why I feel insecure as a Hindu, thanks to the Indian state

Discussion in 'National Politics' started by omya, Oct 19, 2017.

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  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    I am all for status quo and then subtle reversal of the trends in demography as of today.

    I do not subscribe to bad mouthing a religion because of idiots who could not understand the essence of a religious belief and twist and turn the words given. I agree with the essence of what @vstol jockey wrote; imperfections will remain due to the human being, a corrupt entity. But I do subscribe to denouncing the use of monotheist religions as tools for achieving political and personal objectives.

    The Rohingya issue - am a staunch supporter of kicking out all Bangladeshis, Rohingyas and any and all Religious Personalities who are religious first and Indians later.
     
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    I agree.

    Islamic invasions are being made an excuse for our own imperfections. The day the Hindus (Indians today, heck even the Russians call us "indus" and not indyeskis normally) start introspecting and getting their own house in order, that shall be the day the nation will be nation first.

    History is witness to traitors and divisiveness being reason for successive invasions and 1000 years of slavery!
     
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  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    It is akin to reservation.

    My contention remains - would anyone, treated differentially and benefiting from that, be willing to give up that privilege? If the Muslims are being treated with 'kid gloves', why would they give up their special treatment?
    Heck, even Tina Dabi, daughter of Engineer Couple (with PWD?) used SC to secure her seat! This when her parents earn lakh plus per month! What stupid logic is that?

    When this kind of system is propagated, we will face such challenges.

    This 'selective' treatment has not only alienated the Muslims (by reinforcing an idea of separate identity with predominance of religious identities) but also created a backlash within the society against them. In short, Indians have been divided by Indians - Hindus and Muslims alike.

    When will Indians be Indians first and last and religious in their own private thoughts?


    Can't blame Congress alone. BJP extended Mandal Commission in 1999 under Vajpayee. Such measures fissured the Hindu society further, instead of bridging the gap. Jan Sangh played the religious card in Jammu and allowed the space to Muslim parties in J&K in 80s when Indira Gandhi tried to bring down the Farooq Abdullah Government in 1983! Her antics allowed Jan Sangh and Muslim Parties to establish identity based politics in Kashmir, fissuring the society.

    Religion in public space is dangerous. This is why I have always fought against labelling and bringing religion into the fore. We have to relegate it to the side channels and move it out of the mainstream, if we have to survive as a nation.
     
  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Caste system was varna system a very good system of professionalism, allowing one to shift from one varna to another and gain knowledge and expertise and propagate it.

    Shame it became a social stratification due to unscrupulous practices.
     
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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Ahem. They don't even consider themselves "Indians later".
     
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Our society was way too ignorant for the varna system.
     
  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The biggest group of people who bad mouthed Sanatan Dharma are communists and their equally violent muslim brothers. But when they make false propaganda about Manu Smriti and Varna system, they forget that even their big daddy Karl Marx had stated employment as per one's caliber and qualification. When Karl Marx rephrases Manu Smriti and Varna system, it becomes gospel truth but if read in Sanskrit, its evil.
     
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  8. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    Every religion in INDIA has developed caste system. In other countries (including massive ones like Russia and China) there has been very little of that. Serfdom, for instance. was never given a religious sanction, it was considered an abnormality born for economic adavantage. Look at it this way- EVERY SINGLE INVASION and every single colonizer has used a divide and rule policy on India. When the muslims invaded, or the British colonized, the tactic was similar. British could never do this in China so they got them addicted to opium. In India, the social structure was so fractured due to the caste system that everyone just decided it was too easy to exploit it.

    Fact- India LOST the wars against muslim invaders and British and so on. (I have nothing against the Rajputs but making a point here). 'Rajputs fought valiantly' proves what? In the end we LOST that war. If you look at it dispassionately aren't the following factors important? As an army man won't you dispassionately look at the sitatuion and say:

    a) They could not mobilize all the people in the state they ruled- at least 50% to 60% of able bodied men were not available for battle because of caste restreictions
    b) While they were 'peacocking' and talking about the greatness of their traditions they had a crappy strategy for a war they lost and whose consequences lasted for centuries
    c) Even after defeat they did not address these fundamental issues and continued to maintain (like all castes BTW) the system

    If you consider the factors then you know that nothing has been done to address these weaknesses. RSS, in trying to 'revive' old traditions is basically taking steps to keep the old BS ways intact.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  9. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    you can introduce any amendment you want, which is why there is a process for 'amending' the population. The word was well within the definition of Directive Principles. Nothing wrong here,
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I fully agree to what you have written. Infact the situation till about 7th Century was such that it was only varna system which was followed and only merit and capabilities decided the profession of a person. Please remember that varna system is a division of manpower for various jobs. Its more like labour laws and shud not be read as a dictate of a religion. Even the DNA profiling shows full intermixing between so called low castes and upper castes tillabout 7th century . Ashoka was from a low caste.
    Your point about Muslim-Rajput wars is well taken. Infact British did exactly what the Muslims did to defeat valiant rajput warriors.
    read the battle account of any invader, The first row of attackers was always the neo-converts who were mostly from low castes. These people used to cause minimum damage to Rajput armies but they did something more important-They fatigued out the rajputs and turned numbers in favour of invaders by killing whatever few Rajputs they cud manage to kill. After that the main army of invaders used to attack.
    British used Dalit Maharastrians and otherlow castes and trained them and they did turn out to be outstanding warriors.
     
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  11. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    You make significant points but to state that it was only the caste system which was responsible for external aggression prevailing over the native Indians , whether Islamic or later the British can be put down to over simplification .

    India has always faced invasion from the NW and here I'm referring to undivided India since the beginning of recorded history .Right down from the Greeks , the Kushans , the Sakas , The Sveta Hunas to the Turks , Afghans and finally the Mughals followed by Nadir SHAH & Ahmed Shah Abdali .

    The difference between the Islamic invaders and the others were that the former didn't assimilate within the existing socio religious cultural mileu but disrupted the existing one and sought to impose their own among the existing populace resulting in tremendous barbarity and destruction - the whole account of which still eludes us .

    To address your question of caste - there is a common misconception in India equating the Shudras with the Untouchables or Da lits . While the former are very much part of the Chatur Varna , it's the latter who are considered outcastes.

    Shudras who as per the 2011 census comprise some 70% + of the Hindu population have had a glorious history stretching into pre history of establishing their own kingdoms beginning with the Nanda and followed by the Maurya dynasties .

    Shivaji was a Shudra as were the Reddy dynasty in Telengana / AP or even for that matter the founders of the Vijaynagar Empire . These are a few random examples of medieval India.

    In fact in the post Aurangzeb period , the Shudras had established their fiefdoms in a majority of mainland India be they the Marathas and their feudatories ( the Peshwas were Chitpavan Brahmins but the other Maratha feudatories be it the Scindias or the Holkars , the Bhonsales , the Punwars ,the Ghorpades , the Gaekwads , etc ) the Jats , the first and last Sikh Empire , were all led by what is understood by the Chatur Varna system ,to be Shudras .

    The truth of why did India succumb to Islamic invasions persistently resulting in the 1000 years of slavery as per the RSS school of thought is far too complex to be reduced to a single theory of caste being the sole or for the most part the primary driver of the failure of Indian resistance to Islamic invasions .

    As an aside it could also be pointed out that in spite of dominating most of the sub continent for close to a millennium they couldn't succeed in their attempt to convert the full population . An extremely rare feat given that all those nations which have had substantial periods of Islamic rule have had an overwhelming majority if not the complete population adhering to Islam in a short period of time .The most notable exception apart from India would be the Iberian peninsula .But that's another topic for another discussion .

    To return to the premise of your theory , perhaps you should read about Ibn Khaldun's theory of the Assabiya .Though he used it to explain the rise and fall of the Arabs , with suitable adjustments it can be used to explain the rise and downfall of any civilization .

    Another interesting point I'd like to raise is - did you know that when Abdel Gemal Nasser and his band of young army officers seized power in Egypt , it was the first time in nearly 2500 years that Egypt was being governed by one of its own natives.

    Food for thought !!
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Every country which was invaded by Muslims was converted to 100% muslim population. They cud not succeed in India. Even after the fall of Kakatiya when not even one Telugu warrior was left alive, The same lot of Brahmins who are treated as villains of history, taught warfare to Reddy's and converted them to Kshatriyas. These Reddys than re-established their Kingdom.
     
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  13. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    No matter how much discussion you can have on the theoreticals that fact is as follws:
    a) India went to war with some of the vilest characters known to man- Amir Timur, Ghauri etc. with less than half the people who could fight
    b) Any aspect that lets this continue and keeps Indians divided is a contributor of weakness

    RSS idea cannot be 'simplified' - yeah it can be simplified. In the end it will contribute to one or the other of the above points. the only true national resistance came in the 20th century under Gandhi. He said 2 things
    a) remove untouchability, everyone needs to be included. So lower castes were able to come out in support of the comoon enemy, the British
    b) Recognize that Muslims are now a reality of India, Hindus and Muslims should find ways to bury their differences and fight the common enemy, the British

    RSS ideology was only a continuation of the mistakes hindus (later Indians) have done for 1000s of years.
     
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  14. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    For the past 10-15 years maybe. And before that?
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Since independence. High castes who needed help were cast out of welfare programs. There are backwards in forward classes also.

    Narasimha Rao introduced a 10% quota for the poor within the forward classes back in the early 90s, but the Supreme Court stopped it.
     
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