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A New concept of Airborne Radar

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by smestarz, Jun 14, 2011.

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  1. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    For a Group of surface combatants , say 3-4 destroyers their range of detection of Aircraft as well as surface combatants will be about 100 Kms due to shape of the earth.
    I was thinking of a concept of a Naval radar mounted on a blimp (balloon filled with Helium)

    Blimps can carry heavy radar and this blimp will try to be in the centre of the destroyer group.
    The Blimp will be like an mini-AWACS but at much slower speed and give the destroyers the information about Surface and Air threats and then can direct the destroyers or Long range Strike aircraft to the threat, Since the Blimp can fly 24 hours, and can easily carry about 2 tons of weight (weight of airborne radar like an AESA??) to detect the threats at much longer range. especially the surface combatants.

    Anyone thinks this theory holds water?

    thanks
     
  2. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well BLIMP needs direction control. plain vanilla blimp would be follow the direction of wind. Rather i would go for a satellite....may low orbiting satellite having radar. But to Radar i would be prefer IR and VR sensor sensitive enough to detect missiles, ships, Combat Vehicles and off course planes. That connected gird of Systems which can identify Friend or foe and civilian ........
     
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  3. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Sure, I am looking at a powered Blimp that has a direction control and speed (upto 100 kmph) that is more than enough to keep with the destroyer group.
    The low orbiting satellites are good options, but its never a good idea to put all the eggs in one basket. America has so many Satellites but then why do they need AWACS? Because Satellites are what we can say Strategic Assets, AWACS will be fill the gap between Strategic and Tactical decisions supplying info to both areas, Where as the Blimp that I suggest will provide the Destroyer group with Tactical and operational information.
    The risks of satellites is very high such as
    a) Cost.: The cost of satellite making and launching itself will be very high
    b) Risk of launching: If the rocket that is going to carry the satellite fails then it takes the program back for more than few years (as they have to make another satellite and also another rocket to launch it"
    c) There are our neighbours who do have missiles that can hit satellites if they need and what exactly is going to protect the satellite? (unless you plan to have a CIWS around the satellite.

    The advantages with Blimps are
    a) Low cost of production of Blimps, Does not need launching system.
    b) Technology of blimps is already available.
    c) If a blimp fails (which is low probability) you can always get another one
    d) The Radar can be low powered to start with and can be upgraded with different versions, so the asset is modular , once a satellite is in space, there is nothing you can do to upgrade it except to launch a new one. Where as in airborne blimp radar you can upgrade the radar and blimp (even add some air to air missiles in case you feel like it and the blimp can take the weight)

    I would surely like a Blimp based radar as simply it can accompany the destroyer group and having 2-3 per group allows almost 24 hours Theatre level surveillance.
     
  4. flanker143

    flanker143 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    going by what you said , a blimp carrying a 2tn payload has to be HUGE , and it would be VERY difficult to use in high wind speed plus that too when travelling at a 100kmph , which is another very difficult thing to do....

    a basic blimp doen't cost much but the one you are talking about has to be bleeding with technology with powerful engine that wud be able to control it up there , plus the cost of the expensive aesa radar.....and the cost of just developing such a tech wud be exorbant !!!!

    u are almost talking about a unmanned aew aircraft ohh sorry airship must say...
     
  5. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Dear Flanker
    sort of like your answers

    I said max speed of 100 kmph and not cruise speed of 100 mph. the only idea is that the airship/blimp has to keep ahead or with the destroyer group
    am i asking too much??
    Zeppelin was huge and carried too much payload, now the technology is better and yes,, NO HYDROGEN.
    The idea is that a ship based radar has a limitation and it will be difficult or rather impossible to have an AWACS to cover this destroyer group. but what if the destroyers had their own long range Detection and control system? And there comes the BLIMP
    Instead of a blimp one can think of even a Amphibious plane which can be effective on land and on sea, would it be a better solution?

    Any more ideas? And this will be manned Blimp as well as Amphibious AEW and Anti shipping craft/
     
  6. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    there two kind of requirements --

    you need a radar detect any intrusion. You need a radar which help track the enemy track enemy target and kill it.

    for detection - Geo-synchronous stationary satellites which more like stationary but does not have obstinate in observation - where as ground base radar will has line sight problems because of the earth being some sort sphere... This problem you will avoid.

    As modern aircraft super cruses in enemy territory - ground base radar may lose target as when it cross the its limit ( due line of sight) - in order pick this traget tracking, ground radar has to hand over this different radar in whose range it comes into - this has to happen till it target is killed.

    Advantages - Advantage of AWACS - Radar is in motion - can travel along with target from a safe distance with a good speed. Since is it moving version, the it go close to border with causing any violation of international boarder keep keep eye what is happening with in enemy air space. since radar is mounted on top (because older radar requires moving dish) it can provide good 360 degree coverage. I feel this is not necessary with AESA radar still we can get 360 coverage. Major advantage of Awacs to satellite - communication is delay. Satellite are at large distance communication signal has to all way up and come back ground.

    Enemy hunting scenario you need sub sec updates to aircraft that challenging enemy aircraft or missile.

    Coming to why American dont deploy satellites - American operate across the globe - Require large army of satellites cover the entire globe - not sure when and where the next operation occurs. difficulty is satellite once deployed - where it is available is determined by orbit to major extent. That will be terrible expensive.

    problem is with blimps - if you are talking normal blimp - they slow and their direction cannot be controlled. once blimp tracks target, target where the blimp is and can it out slowly... for each deployment blimp radar is lost.

    if you are talking airships, then are slow - since they are in high above ground, the problem of line of sight is not hindrance. but this can easily taken down. it require a slow moving defender to guard.

    Coming to Satellites costing - cost radar ( dont want a radar which beams EM waves, i would prefer IR and VR sensor ) + deployment cost - which one time. Then we get 24x7 coverage of entire India, to tease our friend in Pak etc. Satellite will only detect, should not have intelligence to determine whether it is friend or foe - that has to be at ground station. When there is intrusion then immediately we can deploy our costly assets like AWACS for faster tracking or even scramble fighters. Advantage irrespective if our AWACS is airborne or not, we can detect as air craft that is take off or missile that is being launched.
     
  7. flanker143

    flanker143 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    hmm.....i wud rather go for a male uav something which is catapult launched and ofcourse recoverable just like nishant.....and what wud go inside wud be ofcourse the powerful electro-optics and an addition to that (no sorry no radar for me) some real good radar warning receivers.....

    ships and aircrafts will hardly ever switch off their radars in the seas !!! especially the vessels , one or the other is always on plus any aircraft searching for enemy vessels wud hardly ever do the same (coz how are they gonna do the searching with their big shiney radars switched off!!! )

    this way we can do the job very efficiently....what say ??
     
  8. MAFIAN GOD

    MAFIAN GOD Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Are you talking about the radar similar to this AEROSTAT???

    [​IMG]
     
  9. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    The Blimp yes, but need to have Radar system something like that on Saab 2000

    Concept is clear

    a) The biggest ship that india can deploy safely will be destroyers
    b) Why not make small group of 3-4 Destroyers and call this Destroyer Group of Destroyer Task Force.
    c) The combined firepower of this group is sure more than an Aircraft carrier (that too without any need of the AC's entourage

    But sometimes as you are aware the IAF and IN can be at loggerheads, and so why not this destroyer group have its own Airborne Radar
    Which can help it detect and deal with surface threats at say 300 KMs and Ariel targets at much longer range,
     
  10. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    here two kind of requirements --

    you need a radar detect any intrusion. You need a radar which help track the enemy track enemy target and kill it.

    for detection - Geo-synchronous stationary satellites which more like stationary but does not have obstinate in observation - where as ground base radar will has line sight problems because of the earth being some sort sphere... This problem you will avoid.
    SO IN THIS CASE CAN THE SATELLITE AND THIS AIR BORNE RADAR NOT WORK IN CONJUCTION?
    THE WHOLE THOUGHT BEHIND THIS THOUGHT IS THAT
    A) DESTROYERS ARE SO HEAVILY ARMED THAT A GROUP OF 4 DESTOYERS CAN BE EQUIVALENT TO AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER WITHOUT THE COST
    B) COST OF AIRCRAFT CARRIER BUILDING, TRAINING ETC CAN BE 6 BILLION DOLLARS + WHERE AS DESTROYERS COST MUCH CHEAPER
    C) DESTROYERS CAN PROTECT THEMSELF FROM ALL SORT OF THREATS, AIRBORNE, SEA BORNE ETC, WHICH AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER IS NOT FULLY SUFFICIENT FOR
    D) AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER WILL HAVE ITS OWN PROTECTION SCREEN OF DESTROYERS AND SUBMARINES, BUT A DESTROYER TASK FORCE OF 4 DESTROYERS IS AS STRONG AS A CARRIER TASK FORCE WITHOUT THE WHITE ELEPHANT (AIRCRAFT CARRIER)

    AWACS radar is in action but did you read something abt Novator? It is a missile developed by Russia and its supposed to be
    an AWACS killer. Considering that India will have 3 AWACS as of now, how are you going to deploy them?
    The idea of an airship with Radar is purely for naval purpose and that too for DESTROYER TASK FORCE !!
    AWACS is an Airforce asset and I do not think IAF will use it for the Navy.

    Again let me tell you the entire concept before everyone dilutes the concept

    This is NAVAL thought, and nothing to do with IAF or Satellites

    If there are hostilities between India and pakistan now, I do not think our aircraft carrier will be deployed around Mumbai
    it will be kept far away from Hostilties to protect it from Enemy submarines as its too expensive an asset to lose.. So why do we need an aircraft carrier?

    Now in such a situation where the aircraft carrier itself is being hidden as its too good an asset to lose, what are the next powerful vessels that India has? The answer is Destroyers.

    The present destroyers as you know are armed to the teeth.
    For Air defence they have Long Range SAMs, Short range SAMS, CIWS (AK-630)
    For surface Attack they have Cruise missiles like Brahmos, Anti shipping missiles etc, Anti submarine rockets etc

    A fully armed destroyer is in itself a complete battleship, now I want to make a force of 4 calling it Destroyer Task Force (DTF). This task force together has the potential enough to face any challenges that PN can put to it, Also the LR-SAMs that these destroyers carry can fend of any sort of ariel attack. And just in case any missile manges to get through there are always the short range SAMs and also CIWS.

    Now assuming the radar of destroyer can detect a plane at 100 km and surface vessel at 50km and the limit is there due to the shape of earth and not of the radar, What if the radar was at a height of say 2 Kms, that would increase the detection range of the DTF to almost Double. And the DTF will be in better position to Analyse the threats and ready the correct firing solution to the assets being deployed against them

    The relationship between the Radar bearing airbone Airship and DTF is.
    Airborne Radar will give the Destroyers ability to detect enemy assets and their deployment at longer range
    The Destroyers in return protect this Aisrhip from any sort of threat (ariel or surface borne)
    Any enemy asset has to get past the Destroyer screen to destroy this airship.

    Even if the airship is lost, the cost is not much, mainly the cost will be that of the radar,

    And the DTF itself has the ability to form a defensive screen around itself.

    The idea of having an airborne radar on an AIRSHIP is purely to assist the destroyers in Long range detection of enemy assets which the Radar of destroyers cannot detect at longer range due to shape of the earth.

    I do hope the concept is clear,

    With an powered airship, I am sure it can more than keep up with the DTF.

    UAV is good, but the problem with UAV is that it is more or less an optical detection and correct me if it does have an airborne radar? If you want to use a poweful radar, the weight of radar and power will be more than what UAV can handle.

    Another alternative is to use Amphibious aircraft like Beiriev A-40 and put a IAI Eitam Radar to make a CAEW (Conformal Airborne Early Warning) for the NAVY.

    Since this platform is amphibious, it can have a longer range and just has to co-ordinate with tanker for replenishment
    and it can be replenished in air (air to air refueling) on land (at airport using fuel tank) at sea using oil tanker

    No one in the world is using a radar on an amphibous platform.. As most of the countries have their AWACS with Airforce only and not with NAVY, but if the Navy has to act independantly and co-ordinate with Air force then it should have a cheap detection system capable of multiplying the detection by factor of 2 at least.


    Is my concept or demand too much or purely fantasy?

    I believe the need and concept is clear.. also with such airborne radar, we might actually be protected from "fishing vessel type" terrorist threats. which have become true at least once.
     
  11. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    I am talking about an AIRSHIP and not blimp (my mistake)
    Airship is bigger, and is powered and can travel wtih speeds of say 70km/hour,
    carry a load of about 2 tons (the weight of Radar) and 2 member crew to fly the airship.
    The cost of the Airship will be much lower than Planes like Boeing 707 that is used for putting the equirment of AWACS

    This desgn I expect it to be low cost Naval AEW.. The cost being the cost of Airship and the cost of Radar equipment.
    The idea is to multiply the radar detection range of Destroyer Task Force.
     
  12. Mr.Ryu

    Mr.Ryu Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    MY idea is to go for AIRCRAFT CARRIER which is in true sense one that fly in air and act as MOTHER SHIP

    remember INDEPENDENCE day ?

    If we can come up with such a solution that will be huge break through of the century.
     
  13. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Dear Mr.Ryu if we can come up with an "aircraft carrier" like that in independence day then I dont think we need even destroyers etc.

    The problem is
    a) Aircraft carriers take a long time to develop and build and presently we are not the top of the line for this
    b) India is a peninsula (covered on 3 sides by water and so we do need a big naval force, our coast line maybe as big or bigger than china
    c) Aircraft carriers are going to be very expensive and long time to build and they are an asset to be protected, so almost 25% of our naval vessels will be attached to the carrier force to protect the vessel.
    Aircraft carrier cannot go on its own, due to submarine threats

    Now I ask you questions please answer me

    a) What exactly is role of an aircraft carrier?
    A) Force projection over a vast area that its aircraft can cover..(usually the force projection is over 70% area as in 30% of the area even the enemy has presence.
    Now compare missiles and Aircrafts
    Missiles are cheaper single hit ariel vehicles which do not need anything for self protection
    Aircaft are much expensive and manned (in case of india) ariel vehicles which can deliver heavy payload on target but also depend on AA missile for self protection

    So if you want to attack a naval base you can deploy 10 aircrafts (6 in strike role and 4 in Air superiority role) and moment Strike package has been delivered, the entire force of 10 becomes air superiority planes as they do not have any heavy bombs. So till the time they hit the target.
    6 are usually weaker in air to air combat. and if there is no any air opposition, the 4 other planes are just spectators

    But in case of missiles, they have single mission focus, "hitting the Target" If you fire 10 missiles of different category (supersonic cruise missiles and subsonic cruise missiles intended to reach target at same time) The cost of this missiles will be fraction of that of single aircraft.
    And will tend to be much focused and not worried abt Air to air threats. Sure the enemy will deloy their air to air and CIWS assets, but then they would deploy them against Aircraft carrying Air to surface missiles..

    I think due to advent of more better and accurate missiles, the role of aircaft carrier is over, yes only in an uneven match it is good (if we think to show our strength to madagascar or other african countries, but believe me that a force of 4 destroyers will be able to do much more at much lower cost.

    If you did not calculate..
    A carrier task force will have more than 4 destroyers and 4 frigates and submarines, so what would be the cost of deployment of 1 aircraft carrier???
    You cannot deploy an aircraft carrier on its own. And it does depend on Submarines and destroyers for its protection and it uses its aircraft for long range protection of these assets,
    But present day destroyers are much heavily armed and can defend themselves against any threat, Sea, undersea or air..

    I think if we re-think Naval doctrine in the changing world and deployments we might come with better weapons suited to our needs and the world might follow us.

    Why not an amphibious strike aircraft which can fly at max 700 mph, it can be one of the best asset to challenge any piracy to maritime assets.
    Keep 2 A-40 with IAI Eitam radar or super green pine (if we can get) these have ranges of 800 kms !!!
    And arm these planes with 2 Anti shipping missiles if there is need to do so and 2 Medium range air to air missiles (just in case)

    And let these NAVAL AWACS warn and control the other assets such as Destroyer Group or other A-40 amphibian strike planes Armed with say
    2-4 Anti shipping missiles and 2 air to air missiles and say 2 X 3-5 barreled 20mm or 25 mm Gatling gun (using HMS or Something to direct and target more accurately)

    Anti shipping missiles or guided rockets to attack the mother vessel if any (since these are small boats, can NAG missile be converted into hitting a small vessel instead of a tank at range of 10 kms? the warhead has to be AP and HE )

    Air to air missile for self protection just in case (if its possible and feasible)
    20 - 30 mm gatling guns to be used directly on the Pirate boat as warning or to sink it.
     
  14. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Not sure which requirement does this blimp cater -- most probably monitoring during on war like scenario... how about normal times. India needs to have capability to monitoring during peace time. Remember India no first use of nuclear strikes and where as some other nations dont - and idea that can fantasized is that first strike hard with nuclear, so hard there will not be response. blimp does not work.
    In modern day every thing get integrated by back information systems. Only issue is with Satellite system is latency is high to provide sub second updates. For example i watch my TV on satellite dish and my neighbor on local cable. During world cup final, my neighbor started celebrating when i watching final ball is about to delivered or delivered. < don't remember when exactly>. that he that means he already watched final six being declared.

    Having said that Satellite will provide almost 24x7 coverage all key areas and India will hardly have a surprise if one wants to surprise. Based current system in place it will be very expensive to maintain that kind of coverage with out letting other in moving high level of alerts. Other alternative is believe assurances and trust them. "one sarcastic movement in India history - hindi chini bhai bhai nara that was going around in India and even troops started moved deep into Indian Territory". These surprising moments one can get and one of great blonde moment of India!!!

    Idea of about having AWACS either based on airship or aircraft or UAV - to over come idea is
    1) over coming line of sight problem
    2) being mobile and fast moving can cover wider areas than stationary based radar.
    3) can move in direction for keep tracking fast moving target

    in case of blimp speed becomes limitation. And again - destroyers dont travel that fast as aircrafts and G2A missiles. aircrafts can fire missiles A2A missiles from beyond 90 kms and move away. A2A missiles travel much faster than aircrafts. Since Blimp cannot defend them self can be sitting duck before Destroyer can respond. Blimp is so inexpensive we don't bother to defend them.

    Again when you are in blue sea, the communication between blimp and defender will depend on Satellite.

    i can see utility of blimp based AWACS - which will be couple or triple being launched and moving circles with around ship there by enhancing Ships Radar and sonar...

    If my understanding is correct, aircraft carrier - it is offensive system not a defensive system.. that is when you want invade rather than defend. most of modern aircraft carriers have powerful sensors to detect threats from very far range and also defensive system which can neutralize them. I dont think India would ever deploy AC in defensive formulations

    One question if you are afraid that you lose system when deployed , so hide them - investing those system is sounds like what i do.......

    Modern AWACS system does not require a rotodome - simply because they are based on aesa radars. This also makes airplane more efficient.
    in order to get 360 coverage - one has place series of radars and integrate them to get 360 picture.

    Ideally what i would like to see is --

    couple of Satellites with powerful sensor covering India and little beyond if necessary covering 24X7, These satellites are backed powerful computer analyzed what is being sensed . Then good coverage of series of ground radars.

    UAV based or aircraft based radars specifically deploy-able in various scenarios in specific sectors. May be blimp as well as... i am not discounting the fact blimp base radar - before say yes to it.. may require more analysis.. especially from being slowing, easy target-able and low capability of payload. answer lies there...
     
  15. MAFIAN GOD

    MAFIAN GOD Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Buddy,
    1>Destroyers are very large and much expensive to operate and maintenance.
    Instead one can use a group of ships which consists of 1 destroyer with frigates.
    2>It is a debatable issue that the firepower of group of destroyers is more or firepower of aircraft carrier is more.
    I guess if we only consider an aircraft carrier it is much more vulnerable and may have less firepower but carriers are always with their battle groups.SO in any condition the firepower of CBG(Carrier Battle Group) is more than the group of destroyers.
     
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