Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

A New concept of Airborne Radar

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by smestarz, Jun 14, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    Destroyers are large and expensive to operate BUT NOT AS EXPENSIVE AS AIRCRAFT CARRIER
    Also as you said CBG has group of destroyers so you cannot just operate an Aircraft carrier. so the cost of putting an aircraft carrier in action will be
    Cost of aircarft carrier + cost of the shadowing destroyers + cost of accompanying frigates + cost of accompany and screeniing submarines + cost of replenishing tanker.
    Where as cost of operating Destroyer group of 4 destroyers is just the cost of 4 destroyers and maybe cost of replenishing tanker if want to patrol for longer duration.
    Aircraft carrier is sort of status symbol and soon as any conflict between major powers with long range missiles should prove that the days of aircraft carrier as force projection is over.
     
  2. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    Now I think the discussion is having two parts now
    a) The Naval Radar (Airship or Amphibious aircraft)
    b) What is better and more effective force projection? Aircraft carrier group or Destroyer Task force (and also cheaper Effectiveness/cost and risk
     
  3. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    20
    definitely an aircraft which can take on and land from carrier.........if you have Big ones not the ones we have.
    Definitely Aircraft carrier group - if Group is capable of all sorts of missiles and with its air power.. it is the best for an offensive.

    For India.. we need know India wants to go offensive across the globe or across asia ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2011
  4. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    Considering our Naval doctrine, I do not think aircraft carrier is a good option,
    Earlier there were battle ships with range of their guns at 25 miles
    Then came aircraft carriers and the ships were able to hit other ships at 400 miles
    If a strike aircraft could be taken off from destroyer, we might have been talking about destroyer fleet as the aircraft were delivering bombs
    so a ship could now strike at 400 km range,
    But now using cruise missiles and other missiles, ships or planes can hit target 1000 miles or more from where they are located, so why the need of an aircraft carrier whose basic weakness is that it needs its entourage to protect it
    I dont understand the bull headed ness

    And I think the americans will change, else they will meet their midway like japan met their midway.
     
  5. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    20
    all our doctrines are confused - some one even say may stand what i stand for !!!! :). Some times we boost that can control pirates.. when pirates start attacking - we again feel we should not got involved or does not want involve.

    We have Indian ocean - at our door step - other nations are present in India ocean is Australia and may be south africa worth of talking off... there is very important trade route thru Indian ocean. that is to be secured....for global stability. why should we allow some to do it why not us ? so Strong blue navy essential.
    idea is they are moving air bases.. with nuclear powered - they dont have bothered..if the capable of firing all type missiles and torpedoes - they not vulnerable.

    Should India need it ? not sure... how many times we have used mirage 2000 planes... twice if i am not wrong

    1) to escort essential supplies to Tamils in Srilanka and
    2) other time in Kargil.

    Yet we are getting ready up grade with cost per unit is more than new plane... does it makes sense ? only helps create jobs ? no :(

    We spend billions on Defense - really when India stretched out externally - Kandahar hijacking is India about deploy a solution ? no :(

    how much time did our defense forces took mobilize commandos for Mumbai attack ? unacceptable time
    how much time did our forces took mobilize during Parliament attack ? unacceptable time.

    for mumbai - reason given is our forces dose not have planes to reach. how many private planes fly between Delhi and mumbai any other part of country. Cannt they conscript these planes ? does Defense forces should go auto alert and be prepared in these kind of situation wait for request for deployment ? does Army cheif or IAF required special email or snail mail from civilian administration then start preparing ?


    There is huge disconnect in entire security doctrine itself. one more question does does Armed forces involve in preparing security doctrine and foreign policy doctrines at all ?
     
  6. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    Hello, Thanks for your post, you really did go out of Topic but I do agree with you 100% with all you said.
    We have used Mirages in attack once and that too in Kargil and that too from Indian side of border so as to not upset pakistan

    Indian and pakistan govt seems to be more eager in spending money for their own beneifit
    Do you know that President of Pakistan is the second richest person in pakistan!! He is a billioniare and his business?
    He did ensure that when pakistan purchased Mirages from France, there was a clause for commission for his company in europe

    If half of what we spend on defence is spent on self development, we can make Europe here in ASIA ,
     
  7. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    Hello, Thanks for your post, you really did go out of Topic but I do agree with you 100% with all you said.
    We have used Mirages in attack once and that too in Kargil and that too from Indian side of border so as to not upset pakistan

    Indian and pakistan govt seems to be more eager in spending money for their own beneifit
    Do you know that President of Pakistan is the second richest person in pakistan!! He is a billioniare and his business?
    He did ensure that when pakistan purchased Mirages from France, there was a clause for commission for his company in europe

    If half of what we spend on defence is spent on self development, we can make Europe here in ASIA ,
     
  8. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    Sorry for being off topic myself

    I think we really need to rethink the global scenario and what are the threats and what are our strengths and use them to our advantage
    India is really screwed in diplomatic sense when our Home minister is understood to be begging to FBI to let us talk to David headly even to
    atleast let us sit in adjoining room to show we are doing something.
    Our govt is a huge face wash, I do not want to categories UPA
    The crux of the matter is that we need to rethink indian defence policy
     
  9. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    20
    we went off topic long back - i guess this topic was discuss blimps or airship based AWACS or cheap redundant AWACS :offtopic:
     
  10. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    I think the point is clear. we need Change in naval policy, and following
    a) Air ship based AWACS as it has engine and not blimp (no engine)
    b) A long range amphibious plane like A-40 or derivative as that can be a force multipler for the Navy and an ideal candidate for reducing the risk of piracy/
    Israeli Super green pine has detection range of 800 kms and so we need a plane that can be amphibious and can fly high and good range
    and we cover almost 25% of the indian coast line with 1 plane..
     
  11. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    20
    [​IMG]


    Customer United States Strategic Command, Joint Functional Component Command for Space.
    Spacecraft Launch Mass: 1031 kg (2277 lb.)
    Solar Arrays: Fixed with ITJ cells, 840 W (EOL)
    Stabilization: 3-axis
    Payload Visible Sensor
    Large aperture with wide field of view.
    Very low noise payload electronics.
    Highly-agile 2-axis gimbal.
    Reprogrammable on-board processor.
    Ground Satellite Operations Center located at Schriever AFB.
    SBSS Depot located at Boeing Colorado Springs, CO.
    Mission Data Products Metric (positional data on Earth orbiting objects).
    Space Object Identification (SOI).
    Quantity 1
    Launch Date September 25, 2010
    Orbit 630 km, sun sync
    Mission Life 5.5 yrs mean mission duration; 7 yrs design life
    Description and Purpose

    The United States depends on space assets for a wide range of commercial, civil and military purposes, from communications to navigation to weather forecasting. To protect these assets, the ability to detect and track space objects is crucial -- especially those objects considered to be possible threats, whether real or accidental.

    The Space Based Space Surveillance (SBSS) System provides the only space-based sensor in the U.S. Air Force Space Surveillance Network with the ability to detect debris, spacecraft or other distant space objects without interference from weather, atmosphere or time of day.
    General Characteristics:

    The SBSS system will revolutionize the nation's Space Situational Awareness by detecting and monitoring dimmer, most distant objects than ever before.

    SBSS spacecraft features a visible sensor mounted on an agile, two-axis gimbal. That allows ground controllers to quickly move the camera between targets without having to expend the time and fuel to reposition the entire spacecraft.

    This agile sensor mount enables SBSS to find and track objects in space -- even new spacecraft launches and maneuvers -- with significantly greater speed, capacity and sensitivity than previous space sensors, including:

    twice the sensitivity
    twice as fast at detecting threats
    three times improvement in the probability of detecting threats, and
    ten times improvement in capacity

    The satellite also has an onboard image-processing payload and software developed by Boeing that is reprogrammable to enhance mission flexibility and upgrades. The SBSS Satellite Operations Center has an open, flexible ground architecture with the ability to add additional satellites and sensors.
    Background:

    The U.S. Space Surveillance Network relies on ground-based radars and optical telescopes around the world to track thousands of objects in space. But their monitoring abilities are limited by weather, the atmosphere and, in the case of telescopes, daylight. Plus, these instruments can only get intermittent glimpses of orbiting objects as they pass overhead.

    In orbit, SBSS sensors are not affected by weather, atmosphere or time of day, and it has a much wider field of view than sensors on the ground.

    SBSS is the next step in the evolution of space-based monitoring of objects in orbit, building on the success of the most recent orbiting sensor, the MSX Space-based Visible Sensor (SBV), which ceased operation in December 2008.

    Boeing was awarded the contract in 2004 and was teamed with Ball Aerospace to design and deliver the first SBSS Block 10 spacecraft and associated ground segment. Boeing has overall responsibility for the SBSS system, including the ground system and initial mission operations. Ball Aerospace is providing the satellite and sensor, which leverages the Boeing onboard mission processor.The SBSS satellite was launched on Sept. 25, 2010 from Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif. It was launched on an Orbital Sciences Minotaur rocket.

    For more information, read the Space Based Space Surveillance (SBSS) System overview.


    I was talking about this kind of Satellite - this has only VR but my wish is both VR as well as IR for night - This is sun sync where my wish is list is geo sync over some point over India. this for monitoring activity over Indian air space.

    Boeing: Space Based Space Surveillance (SBSS) System
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011
  12. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,352
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    There are quite a few problems with the concept:

    - The equipment will be heavy, will require power to operate, and only way to generate power at such heights will be through either batteries or solar cells, both will be expensive and heavy, and of course inadequate.

    - The balloon will be difficult to control, since winds at high altitudes are very fast, and moving in sync with the destroyers will be almost impossible.

    - The radar even if operational will find it EXTREMELY difficult to distinguish between the clutter and naval vessels, at such heights, the radar view wil be full of clutter due to sea waves, birds, clouds, and humidity.

    - If the balloon is at medium to low altitudes, it can be easily targeted by SAMs.
     
  13. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    As I said before, the Airborne radar on Airship, the idea is that it should be the long range search radar for Destroyer/Cruiser/Frigate group
    The Role of Destroyer/Cruiser/Frigate group is to provide protection from Ariel threats, SAMs and Aircrafts, and this airborne Radar will the one that will enhance the detection range of the Destroyer/Cruiser/Frigate group.
    The range that destroyer Radar can detect will be abt 100 miles max but this airborne radar on airship will give the detection range upto 800 kms (or miles) if we have the Israeli Super pine radar 800 mile range detection will be good enough to detect any surface /ariel threat from much further that the threat can launch attacks..
    So it becomes a symbiotic relationship between the airship and destroyer
    The airship provides long range targets and warnings, and the destroyers provide protection and attack options
    THIS COST IS MUCH CHEAPER THAN HAVING AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER..

    Yes only the Power generation might be a problem
     
  14. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,352
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    As I said, the detection range might be good, but at such heights, radar will be looking down at the ocean. And since it would be at such height, it wouldn't be able to distinguish between clutter and naval vessels. Everything would look so tiny, and to enhance the resolution, to make things more distinguishable, the power required would be in the range of 100-400 KW, which is impossible.
     
  15. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,653
    Likes Received:
    1,803
    Why would the power required be not possible to generate, Airship does have capability as it does have engines to provide thrust and direction
    Can this be not worked on?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page