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After Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on full-tech transfer pa

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by lca-fan, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    After Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on full-tech transfer pact

    [​IMG]
    File photo shows aircraft Sukhoi at Aero India 2017
    HIGHLIGHTS
    • India will ink final R&D contract for the FGFA with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology.
    • Decision has been taken in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme.
    • IAF has been unhappy with Sukhoi because the jet lacks proper stealth.


    NEW DELHI: India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.

    Defence ministry sources say this decision has been taken at the "highest levels" in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.

    "Though bulk of the 272 Sukhois (240 inducted till now) contracted from Russia have been made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), they have been basically assembled here with imported knocked-down kits. HAL still cannot manufacture the Sukhois on its own," said a source. A HAL-made Sukhoi (around Rs 450 crore) also costs Rs 100 crore more than the price of the same jet imported from Russia.

    So, despite Russian pressure to ink the long-pending final R&D contract for the FGFA, India now wants to know whether it will get good value for the estimated $25 billion it will spend to induct 127 of these single-seat jets. The two countries, incidentally, had inked the FGFA inter-governmental agreement way back in 2007, which was followed by a $295 million preliminary design contract in 2010 before the negotiations stalled.

    India has now laid down two essential prerequisites for the FGFA project, apart from examining its entire cost-effectiveness. One, there should be extensive technology transfer, including the "source codes", to ensure India can in the future upgrade the fighter with integration of new weapons on its own. Two, it should directly help the indigenous FGFA project called the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), the preliminary design work for which is now under way, as was earlier reported by TOI.

    "This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from IAF, which includes an IIT Kanpur professor and former chiefs of HAL and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects. The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," said the source. A swing-role FGFA basically combines advanced stealth, supercruise capability (achieving supersonic cruise speeds without use of afterburners), super-maneuverability, data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter.

    But IAF has been unhappy with the Russian FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA because the jet lacks proper stealth and its engine does not have "enough thrust", which are among 43 critical modifications or shortcomings it pointed out earlier.

    Russia, however, is now promising the Indian FGFA or the "perspective multi-role fighter" will be quite different from the Sukhoi T-50, with more powerful engines and other capabilities. Under the main R&D contract, India and Russia are supposed to contribute $4 billion each for prototype development, testing and infrastructure build-up.Deliveries of the fighters, which will cost extra, were earlier supposed to begin 94 months after it was inked.
    http://m.timesofindia.com/india/aft...h-full-tech-transfer/articleshow/57546519.cms


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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  2. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    :lol: That's not happening.... Even if it does.... Russians will make sure...It takes decades.
     
  3. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Then we may dump FGFA and give full throttle to AMCA with help from France and Dassault like we're doing for Ghatak, which will have Neuron technologies. AMCA can have Rafale technologies.
     
  4. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    That's a long long time away....
     
  5. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Once this PAK FA project is finished, India should look into collaborating with other countries like Israel and France on advanced technologies and projects. Neither the US nor Russia is an ideal partner in this case.
     
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  6. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    We have to get as much tech as we can from this deal. Or else it's going to be a circus in the future.
     
  7. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Sorry, guru, but do you really expect to buy inique technologies for only money? What can you say about an agreement, in which will be fixed that in case of big war India will not be neutral, and will sell us jet planes in fixed price (may be in gold) in the required amount, and will not sell them to our enemies?
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That's how it works. We are paying for R&D also. If we hold 50% IPR, then full ToT should be guaranteed.

    India has a policy of not being part of alliances. If Russia ends up fighting NATO, India will only watch. But if Russia fights China, then something can be done. If Russia attacks a small country, India won't support Russia militarily. But India is not interested in setting up full blown alliances like NATO and Warsaw Pact and such.

    If India is to enter a major war, it will be like how the US entered both WW1 and 2.

    India already supports Russia's actions in Crimea, Georgia etc.
    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/indian-support-russia-crimea-317/

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...a-for-its-stand-on-ukraine/article5800989.ece

    This arrangement is easy to manage. But what do you mean by fixed price?

    Anyway, a price is fixed in the Inter-Govt Agreement. And a price escalation happens through a fixed rate, that's to cater for exchange rate fluctuations.

    Rather than gold, we can do rupee exchange. That's even better. We have done it before under the Soviet Union. You will need food, medicine etc also, and we need your oil and gas.

    By the time any major war happens, India's economy will be much bigger and rupee will be more stable and acceptable by other countries, like yuan and yen. So it can be an alternative to the dollar for Russia. And this way India can easily avoid sanctions from the West.

    Yes, that arrangement is part of the current deal. Both govts have to approve customers. India won't be able to sell the FGFA to NATO or American friendly nations like Japan, Israel or Australia. Russia has no problems selling weapons to the Middle East, Africa, ASEAN, S America etc, that's where India's market will be.

    Similarly Russia won't be able to sell to China, Pakistan etc.
     
  9. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    OK. We invest half of money and you invest half of money - it is fairly play. We invest half of unique technologies and you invest half of unique technologies - it will be fairly play. But, as all we know, you have no such amount of required technologies. So, for equal partnership, you should invest something else.

    Of course it's only your business, but, may be, it's a time to change a position? Winter is coming, and, may be, it will be difficult to survive without reliable allies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
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  10. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Sure. It's your choice.

    OK. It will be good enough. Nobody (even before war) had doubts, that USA will be ally of UK.

    Thank you, comrades.

    For example - 30 lbs of gold for a one jet. Party not less that two hundreds unites in one year.

    Do you know, what will be with "exchange rates" and/or inflation after first exchange of nuclear strikes between Russia and USA?
     
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  11. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    That is why there is an investment. In a perfect world, Russia would not need funds and India would not need tech. But, that is not the case.

    For the alliances part, let's be clear. We were never part of any pact either against the Americans or the Soviets. It is not our fight. Against the Chinese threat, we believe, we do not need any alliances for the same. To tackle the nut jobs to the west, we definitely do not need any military help.
     
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  12. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That won't make much of a difference. This is a 50-year project, so major development will happen for another 40 years minimum. So even if the starting bit has less R&D from India's side, it will improve to 50% as time goes. After FGFA, there will be FGFA M, FGFA two seat, FGFA UCAV etc. Like Brahmos.

    It's still too early for India to choose sides. India is still a 3rd world lower-middle income economy with a very low per capita income. So the focus right now is on economic development.
     
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  13. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    No clue what you mean. 15Kg gold is just $0.5M, you can't buy anything with that let alone a plane.

    You can't sustain a war economy if profits are not generated. If you want freebies, instead of a cheap plane, it is better to expect post war investments into infrastructure in Russia.

    During wartime, a better trade will be oil for equipment.

    It won't make a huge difference. Ruble will collapse, so will dollar, but you can simply switch to INR, CNY, Yen etc wholesale for international trade. The other currencies will be strong.
     
  14. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    After war will be started, price of gold will be dramatically increase. Now, for one troy ounce of gold you can buy twenty barrels of oil. In war time, imho, few thousands of barrels.
    But scecific price will be result of negotiations.

    Sure.

    Thank you, but no.

    I think no. In war time we will need every barrel of oil for our army and industry. But for gold you can buy oil in Middle East, uranium and titanium in Australia, fertilizers in South America and bauxites in Africa.



    No. If war is already started, everybody will begin preparing to war, changing economic on "war rails", and, of course, start creation of money, that mean inflation. War time international trade will be based on the gold or on the barter.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    You are overestimating the price of gold.

    https://www.thebalance.com/gold-price-history-3305646
    In 1939, FDR increased defense spending to prepare for World War II. The economy expanded. At the same time, the Dust Bowl drought ended. The combination ended the Great Depression.

    In 1944, the major powers negotiated the Bretton-Woods Agreement. That made the U.S. dollar the official global currency.The United States defended the price of gold at $35 an ounce.


    When gold value is under threat of major change. A large economy is able to protect that value.

    Look at the list in the link. Gold value stayed stagnant during WW2.

    If a nuclear war happens, gold price will increase, but not even close to what you think.

    It won't. Currency will continue. Russia will have to adapt to manage the ruble during wartime.

    During the Soviet times, a war between NATO and Warsaw Pact would have led to a world war. But now, it's not the case.
     

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