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After Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on full-tech transfer pa

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by lca-fan, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    May be. May be not. I talk not only about price, bu also about liquidity. Everybody know gold. Everybody ready to give you some goods in excange for gold. Australians, Chines, Philippines, etc... To buy interned and captured US Carrier - you will need gold. To buy Uranium - you will need gold, to buy fertillisers - you will need gold.



    When for gold coin you will be able to buy barrel of gasoline, you will not be able to buy it for any amount of dollars, roubles or tugrics.


    Of course, we shall continue using roubles inside country and in trade with close allies. But I very doubt, that even China will sell something for roubles (at least becouse of inflation and risks).

    May be, may be not.
     
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That much gold is not available. Russia's reserves are just 1500 metric tonnes. That's just $52B in today's rate. Not enough.

    Nobody will accept rubles. Especially when the guarantor, the Russian govt, may as well cease to exist.

    Anyway, this discussion has gone OT, so let's stop.
     
  3. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    That's why gold's price will dramatically increase. Nobody have enough of gold. Do you know Indian tale about Golden Antelope? But let's return to our jets. Really important thing is commitment of India sell us this jets in case of big war, and not to sell to our enemis
    Exept Belorussia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan other close allies and occupied zones.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    YarS likes this.
  5. nair

    nair Die hard Romeo Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Russia knows pretty well how to milk we Indians..... They are not gonna give you such technologies....
     
  6. lca-fan

    lca-fan Captain FULL MEMBER

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    India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

    [​IMG]

    Sources from the Indian Defense Ministry have told The Times of India that Delhi would participate in the joint development of a new PAK FA-derived fifth gen fighter in cooperation with Russia only if the Russian side included full-scale technology transfer as part of the deal. Russian experts are divided over the implications of this ultimatum.
    Only last month, Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, the agency charged with regulating military-technical cooperation with other countries, told Sputnik that Russia and India had agreed on a draft contract for the joint development of a new fifth-generation aircraft, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) derived from Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) stealth multirole fighter.

    However, on Thursday, the Times of India reported, citing Defense Ministry sources, that Delhi is conditioning the signing of such a deal with Russia on a full-scale transfer of technology, including the fighter's source codes. In addition, the Indian side is demanding that the FGFA project should directly aid a separate program, India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, as well.

    "This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from the Indian Air Force, which includes an Indian Institute of Technology-Kanpur professor and former chiefs of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects," a source told the newspaper. "The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," the source added.

    The source complained that Sukhoi's previous contract with Hindustan Aeronautics – involving the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI twinjet multirole air superiority fighters, did not provide for technology transfer; Delhi considers this to have been a miscalculation.

    The FGFA project is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in 2014. Under the deal, Russia's Sukhoi Company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would develop an advanced derivative of the T-50 (PAK FA) fifth generation fighter. The multi-billion dollar project is set to include 43 improvements over the T-50, in areas including engine thrust, stealth capabilities, advanced sensors and onboard avionics, as well as supercruise (sustained supersonic flight) capability. Last year, the two countries agreed to commit $4 billion each to R&D, prototype development, testing and infrastructure for the 127 fighters which India expects to cost a total of $25 billion.

    Russian experts are divided over the implications of Delhi's ultimatum.

    Speaking to Radio Sputnik, Col. (ret) Andrei Golovatyuk, military observer and senior member of the Russian Officers Union, explained that the issue of technology transfer in general is an extremely sensitive one.

    "By transferring our technology, we are creating the conditions in the recipient country to stop purchasing our military equipment over the next 10-15 years, and to use our technology to develop its own instead," the officer said. "This is about the same thing that happened with China in the past. In the 1950s and 1960s, we gave them a number of military technologies, and subsequently Beijing made a huge step forward in the development of weapons and military equipment."

    "Something similar could now happen with India," Golovatyuk said. "Of course, this is a very delicate issue – both from the diplomatic and the military-technical perspective. If these are today's technologies, and we have next generation technologies in the wings, then it may be advisable to consider their transfer." Otherwise, the logic is that perhaps Moscow should hold off making the transfer.

    The issue is further complicated, the expert noted, by the fact that military-technical cooperation with India is very important for Russia. "There is a saying: 'nature abhors a vacuum'. If we were to 'leave' India, the vacuum would immediately be occupied by the Americans, the Germans, the British or the Chinese, who are moving forward in leaps and bounds toward developing their own military equipment."

    "India," Golovatyuk stressed, "occupies one of the leading positions in the purchase of Russian arms and military equipment, and we cannot lose this market. Therefore, we should weigh everything very carefully when making a decision."

    For his part, prominent Russian military observer Viktor Litovkin is convinced that Delhi's ultimatum is just a bargaining tactic. India, he noted, "simply doesn't want to pay for a fifth-generation aircraft, and is coming up with all sorts of excuses. In fact, they are demanding that Russia give them all the technology for the plane, which can then be built in India's own plants. That is, they want ultra-modern equipment and technology for a hill of beans."

    Litovkin stressed that Sukhoi need not concern themselves too much with the Indian side's demands, pointing out that Russia's Indian partners have always held to the tactic of bargaining for the lowest-possible price.

    "Some time ago, they bought our aircraft carrier [the Baku, now known as the INS Vikramaditya] for the price of scrap metal," the expert recalled. They wanted us to make it into a super battle-ready warship. We explained that an aircraft carrier is an expensive combat system, and that it was impossible to acquire it for a red cent. They made a lot of noise about it, but ultimately ended up paying."

    Ultimately, Litovkin too said that troubles or not, cooperation with India brings out the best in Russian designers. "In general, we should be forthcoming, listen to their complaints, but calmly proceed to do our work," the expert noted. "Yes, on the other hand, they can be cranky, but on the other hand, it's good for us: they force us to bustle about, to think about how to fulfill the tasks that they set for us."

    "Everything will turn out ok," the observer emphasized. "We will make them a fifth generation plane. They just need to pay."

    Finally, Mikhail Alexandrov, a senior expert at the Center for Military-Political Studies at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, pointed out that full-scale technology transfer is outside the practice of any country engaged in the creation of advanced weaponry.

    "No state engages in the export of cutting edge weapons systems– especially systems which are still under development. And no one ever sells the technology behind these systems – it simply isn't done," the expert stressed.

    Moscow, Alexandrov noted, must clearly and calmly emphasize to its Indian partners "that there are no other countries – the French or the Americans included, willing to share their tech and the intricacies of their aircraft [with India]. I think it's to Delhi's advantage to deal with Russia as things are. We offer them more than other countries, including participation in joint projects, which offers a chance to learn, plus the opportunity to assemble the planes themselves in Indian plants. I do not believe it is worth going beyond that."
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051455656-russian-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-dispute/

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  7. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Thats why India is not going to take help from Russians for their next carrier , and without India their dream carrier storm cant be made ....and this is not congress govt. Without TOT , this deal gonna cancelled ....if India have to do only assemble jets ,they can buy also F-35 , then there is no point in buying pak fa
     
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  8. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Ha! Of course, guys you can get all technologies, question is only in price. And I speak not about money. What can you give us in exchange of full complex of technologies (except money)?
     
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  9. Pash

    Pash FULL MEMBER

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    This is good one. Keep your stuff to you
     
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  10. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Think We should proceed and get the best we can from the Russians. We can atleast see that some of the frames will be built in India

    As if we can get ToT for F35 ... lol.... Sorry but even though we are cosy with the Americans - An Advance weapon system such as the F35 will have MANY strings Attached

    SO, Its the Russians ppl! be Happy with it!
     
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  11. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    He-he-he. Do you really want to pay for half of FGFA, but get all technologies of PAK FA? It is not constructive suggestion, imho.
     
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  12. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    India want half of work for fgfa .
     
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  13. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Neither is any official script or post of official negotiations ! ... Its 2 pages of speculation and sources!
     
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  14. AbRaj

    AbRaj Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Why blame Russia for our own wrong doings.
    Its pure business. If customer ( India) allow sellers (Russia/US/Israel/France) to fool themselve. Its not their fault.
    We should look at the Russia-China deals for some understanding. Well maybe except for illegal copying their tech.
     
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  15. AbRaj

    AbRaj Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Your view point is correct. Most of don't have military background ,so our thinking is unlike experts from respective countries.
    But a fair deal can be done which should be beneficial for both.
    And I think its not something new. Russia has a vast expertise in Civil,Military and Nuclear tech.
    In past you people had helped China establish its industries. India wants something similar. Leave keyboard patriots aside.

    BTW I too think previous govts did not bothered about gaining maximum from Russias expertise. We did some bad deals with a lot of corruption which still forcing us to buy costly equipment from abroad like T90 tanks,Artillery etc. Many of deals are marred with corruption like Aircraft carrier deal.
    These costly buying costing our third world economy darely.
    We now want to get maximum out of every dollar/rubble/euro we spend
    (FYI we have maximum hungry population to feed, have very poor development indices even for a third world country)
    BTW its normal practice to get Tech transferpr rights to sell etc for investment.
    Few good examples are:
    1.Almost all Israel missile development ( with US)
    2.FC1/JF17 with Pack
    3.F16 block 70 with UAE
    4.Various F35 tech among European countries
    5.Euro fighter among European consortium
    6. Various Russo-chinease deals like BMP2 ,SPH,Mig 21 etc

    I don't see anything wrong in realistic negotiations

    (100% tech transfer is a total farce created by media. Don't take it seriously)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
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