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Airbus eyes India market for Panther MBe helicopters

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Industry' started by Manmohan Yadav, Oct 20, 2016.

  1. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant REGISTERED

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    The newer Dhruv is essentially a new chopper with the same airframe. The reliability and performance is miles ahead, the result is evident if you check the timeline of all crashes.

    God Day!
     
  2. Flyboy!

    Flyboy! Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    the Dhruv has claimed lives of many men in its short service so far. I dont know whats your definition of reliable.
     
  3. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    Dhruv is 5.5 ton while Panther is below 4.5 ton.If i remember correctly IN RFI asks for below 5 ton something with limited AWS capability.
     
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  4. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    139NLUH (Panther)
    123 NMRH (EC725)

    Order them fast. The numbers surely would increase as ICG too looks to procure them.

    Delay is criminal here.
     
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  5. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant REGISTERED

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    "The Shakti engine, taken up in 2003 by HAL’s venture with French major Turbomeca to power the helicopter, too, has some way to go, including winter trials in early 2008 before seeking certification. Admitting that “(Aero)engine development is difficult and complex,” Mr Baweja said Shakti was 30 per cent more powerful than the present Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 engine and allowed 150 per cent better carrying capacity in high altitudes. The Shakti-powered Dhruv will be tested at sea level, high altitudes, cold, hot and desert conditions for certification."

    Source: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...l-tests-two-dhruv-versions/article1666662.ece

    [​IMG]

    Engine: 2 x Turbomeca TM32-2B turboshaft, rated at 788kW, main rotor diameter: 13.2m, length with rotors turning: 15.87m, fuselage length: 12.89m, height: 3.93m, take-off weight: 5000kg, empty weight: 2500kg, max speed:290km/h, cruising speed: 245km/h, hovering ceiling: 3000m, service ceiling:6000m, range: 800km

    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...l-tests-two-dhruv-versions/article1666662.ece

    [​IMG]

    Powerplant: 2 × Shakti turboshafts, 1,000 kW each (1,400 shp each), rotor diameter: 13.20 m (43 ft 3.7 in), Length: 15.87 m (52 ft 0.8 in), Height: 4.98 m (16 ft 4.06 in), Max. takeoff weight: 5,500 kg (12,125 lb), Empty weight: 2,502 kg (5,515 lb), Useful load: 2,600 kg (5,731 lb), Disc area: 137 m2 (1,472 ft2),

    Maximum speed: 290 km/h (180 mph, 156.58 kn), Combat radius: 320 km (200 mi, 175 nmi), Ferry range: 827 km (516 mi, 447 nmi), Service ceiling: 6,096 m[142] (20,000 ft), Rate of climb: 10.3 m/s (2,030 ft/min), Power/mass: 329.73 W/kg (0.20 hp/lb)


    Bro, don't get me wrong. I don't have the habit of blindly supporting anything that is made in India. But my point is, comparing the newer version of Dhruv to its older version is pointless. The earlier Dhruv was bound to have issues as it was our first product, but the current Dhruv are essentially a different helicopter with the same design. Apart from the basic airframe design, nothing is same anymore. The power-plant, transmission, avionics and the cockpit is entirely different. And the modification of flight control laws need not be even mentioned as it is comon for any platform.

    There's a total of 14 crashes with 4 of them on Ecuador fleet. Let's look at them in detail, shall we?

    2005 1
    2007 1
    2009 1 (Ecuador)
    2010 2
    2011 2
    2012 1
    2013 1
    2014 2 (1 Ecuador)
    2015 3 (2 Ecuador)
    Total 14 (4 Ecuador)

    Ecuador (4 Crashes)


    2 Crashes were due to Pilot error and 2 due to mechanical error. However the mechanical error crashes are suspected to be due to lack of maintenance as they happened after the HAL maintenance contract was over.

    "HAL, which had provided ground support for these choppers in Ecuador, have said that the two choppers that crashed allegedly because of mechanical defects went down after the ground support period with Ecuador had ended."

    http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/afte...ndian-dhruv-choppers-cancels-contract-1232715

    India (10 Crashes)

    2015 - Unknown
    2014 - Technical Error
    2013 - Technical Error
    2012 - Unknown
    2011 - Technical, Weather
    2010 - Technical, Unknown
    2007 - Pilot Error
    2005 - Technical Error

    5 confirmed incidents of Technical Error, 6 confirmed incidents of not being design fault - against over 200 helicopters in service for nearly 15 years, Yes this is not a flying coffin in military aviation standards. As the older versions get phased out, the safety record will only get better. Also consider the fact that last 2-3 years saw over 30 Dhruv being inducted on an early basis yet no increase in crash rate. Lets hope for a better future.

    Good Day!
     
  6. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant REGISTERED

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    NMRH might position S-70 as a strong contender. I'll work on a comparison when I get time.

    Good Day!
     
  7. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    The S70 is for the 16+8 most probably.

    The Navy , The French Delegation while meeting PM Modi and also blogs written by S Jha mention Naval Multirole Helicopter requirement for a " Sub 12 Ton Helicopter " capable of doing Assault, Transportation , dedicated SAR missions ( and others too. ) , while the competition which S70 won called for anti submarine warfare , anti surface and light transport capabilities.

    While the new competition pays equal importance to Payload, dedicated SAR for longer durations and Assault.

    These were not pointed out, or rather put as secondary features where the S70B won.

    In all likelihood , the NMRH will see EC725 variant , an Kamov option ( as they too were sent/invited) and an offering form Sirkosky, not S70. But most probably what they offered the coast guard competition for 14 helicopters where EC725 won.
     
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  8. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    S-70B is already shortlisted. EC725 is not even in the picture.
     
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  9. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    Two different procurement programs.

    S70B if ordered , will be 24. A sub 10 ton helicopter.

    While another RFP which later got cancelled and was again discussed at the same time as Rafales ( due to which it got overshadowed ) was a programm for 123 sub 12 ton Helicopters with even Transport, Assault and Long Haul SAR missions as primary requirements which were put as secondary requirements for the deal where S70 won.

    Personally speaking , 24 S70B at a high price is better not procured, and the government should simply go for the Sub 12 ton category.
     
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  10. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    I remember saurav ja post. But If IN really need 12ton as priority they would be actively betting for it. Only a brief RFI is the evidence of interest.

    Where is the evidence for low price claim ? S70B have initial high procurement cost just like rafale but over time its worth. S70 is old tech for US they would be willing to transfer tech (Just like what they offer for F16)

    Personally i would prefer S-70B-7 air frame based local variant (Just like Turkish one) for 100+ numbers. 20-30 12ton category preferably HAL MMRH.

    Did we actually debated the same in PDF?!
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    This is the Modi govt. They will either pick Kamov or Sikorsky in a MII program for the naval helicopters. Probably next year.
     
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  12. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    The costs , the Licencing offer ( not official till now ) about the S70 was surely good till a couple of years ago , atleast on newspapers , but now its well known what are the issues with cost.

    Further when the original RFP was issued , which got cancelled , and S70 won it after it was reissued, the original one called for 16 and a follow on of 40 airframes ( this was in 2009) .

    But as of today the number has declined from 56 to 24 on the discussion table.

    This does points out what Navy intends.

    About HAL, maybe by 2030.
     
  13. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    The Coast Guard Competition saw EC winning over Sirkosky.
     
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  14. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    We have no data points for comparison on 100+ MII order to make that statement. Small orders are always costly.

    Turkey got 109 for $3.5 billion. Yes, different capabilities may add to price. Still i think we can get 100 for around $4 billion with full local production and export.

    No, Number 24 is on table today because of the delay. Not because +8 is follow on order. Remaining 32 or so are still on table as follow on.

    It will not get approved without IN choosing the same.
     
  15. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    On cost the most recent deal of Australia says 3 billion USD for 24 airframes.
    Licencing, other costs involved. Lets see.
     

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