AMCA: Updates and Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by DaRk KnIght, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Tshering22
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    Tshering22 FULL MEMBER


    You said it man. I am tired of DRDO's/ADA's/HAL's "leaks" that our loony yellow media interprets as failures at the drop of a hat and starts criticizing to appease foreign lobbies. Really it is annoying. The only project where they couldn't criticize anything was Arihant since they were virtually threatened not to snoop around and all that secrecy gave the world (except Russians) a shocker.

    Discretion is something our government needs to learn from the Dragon. Expect a lot of it this time since AMCA is a 5G bird. :wink:
    1 person likes this.
  2. bhagat
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    bhagat FULL MEMBER

    MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter

    MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter
    SOURCE : VINAYAK SHETTI FOR IDRW.ORG

    MCA 1.0 – Concept and initial idea for development of Twin engine based Medium combat aircraft can be traced back to late 90’s. That’s even before first flight of the LCA TD-1 had taken place, Medium combat aircraft (MCA) then was a tailless delta design with two engines, combined with a thrust vectoring control capability.
    Aircraft was designed keeping in mind LCA-Tejas Delta wings and was a direct derivative from LCA , as per original idea it was supposed to have maximum spare and design commodity with Tejas at that time. Main purpose was to replace the aging Jaguar & MiG-27 fleet from the Indian Air force, original design weight was supposed to be less than 20 tonne. And was supposed to be a Strike aircraft with secondary role of a point defence fighter , In Beginning very small team of Scientist were working on it which was privately funded by ADA from its own budget, but without Tejas proving its mettle first, India air force nor Government of India was Interested to seriously consider this Proposal by ADA, till Tejas Program started gaining popularity among IAF and Defence Ministry whole MCA Project was in cold storage and put under back burner only to revived again in mid-2004-5. A twin-engine delta wing version was been shelved by ADA then.
    MCA 2.0 aka Next Gen Fighter aircraft (NGFA) – MCA got a new name “Next Generation Fighter Aircraft “on recommendation from the Secretary, Defence Production. DRDO and ADA again began to work on MCA aka NGFA in Mid-2006 after initial success of Tejas and with the backing of the government. Indian Air Force asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features. larger team of scientist were assigned to work on the Program, even in this period there was no funding from the Government but a request for Proposal was asked to ascertain if the project can be viable. This was completely new design based on low observability design elements. First look at the aircraft was only available in 2009 when a wind tunnel model was displayed in Aero India 2009 for the first time; Aircraft featured Serpentine air intakes with reduced RCS, and Internal Weapons Bay.
    Earlier Design of MCA (MCA 1.0) was supposed to be a 4.5 Gen aircraft with larger payload , Range and powered by two Kaveri engine, but new MCA (MCA 2.0) had added stealth elements (Semi – stealth) with frontal section getting more Stealth element and also with Reduced Cross Section (RCS) , and with Empty weight of 17 tonne along with 2 tonne internal Weapons and 4 tonne of Fuel , new MCA could have MTOW (Maximum Take of weight) of 22 tonne powered by two Kaveri thrust vectoring engine based on Snecma’s M88-3 core producing 90k of thrust .
    AMCA 3.0 (Advance Medium combat aircraft) – Indian Air force after studying ADA’s Proposal and after working out its own Air Staff requirements (ASR) for the AMCA issued its ASR to DRDO and ADA in April 2010. Indian air forces ASR threw few surprises for MCA Project, like a demanding customer which IAF has been all this year came up with more stringent requirements. some of the Requirements asked by the IAF in its ASR are below and how MCA (2.0) became AMCA

    1) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight.
    2) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.
    3) AESA Radar
    4) Semi – Stealth is not an option, IAF wants it to be fully stealthy aircraft with low RCS.
    5) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it stealthier
    6) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars, Engines, and Avionics)

    7) Multi-Role all weather stealth aircraft (Earlier idea by ADA was a Strike aircraft with other capabilities)

    8 ) Twin pilot configured
    ADA is currently studying the ASR put forward by Indian air force and officially will began work on AMCA in mid-2011, MCA (2.0) design will get further optimization of airframe shaping to further enhance Stealth in it, it will also get further treatment to reduce its IR Signature through Nozzle design, better Bay cooling along with reduction on exhaust temperature from the engine nozzles, special coatings for polycarbonate canopy to make AMCA India’s first stealth fighter aircraft.
    ADA has asked for 18 months to further improve the Airframe changes required to meet ASR issued by the IAF, other than the wind tunnel model displayed in Aero India 2009 there are more three other variants which never has been displayed yet, DRDO is currently planning three Prototypes of AMCA and two production series trial jets which will carry out initial test flights. ADA has promised first flight of AMCA by 2017 which looks highly unlikely, since ADA will need to work on Airframe optimization first and if it fails to get better optimization on stringent requirements laid down by IAF then it might have to work on completely new design itself . $2 billion funding is set to be allocated over the next three years for its development and ADA already received initial funds to start the project.
    Whole MCA program has seen many changes From a 4.5 Gen aircraft to Semi-Stealth aircraft to fully stealth aircraft.
    Engine: Plans are to use Two Kaveri engine based on M88-3 (Core) , if the engines are not ready by the time for first flight either Ge’s F-414IN engines which will power Tejas MK-2 will be used or original lower thrust Kaveri engine might be used for Technology demonstrator aircrafts , still clarity on engine part will come in coming years

    MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter
  3. Tshering22
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    Tshering22 FULL MEMBER

    Re: MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter

    I really don't like the idea of IAF's obsession with 2-seater stealth planes which will only increase cross section. They seem to be applying the MKI formula in every damn jet they buy from now on. This is ridiculous because in 5G birds, most of the things would be done by computers including weapon system management, fuel-tracking, bogy-tracking, damage assessment and a lot of other things, leaving the pilot to simply lighten up without the need for a second man.

    IAF is terribly wrong applying 4.5G thinking to 5G technology. USA, Russia and China all the 3 makers of 5G birds are having single seater configuration.

    Even Russia which has decades of experience in aircraft tech has advised against 2-seater configuration. But IAF's adamant stand is irritating against experts who know more than all the Indian engineers and air marshals combined. :angry:
  4. CONNAN
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    CONNAN FULL MEMBER

    MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter

    MCA 1.0 – Concept and initial idea for development of Twin engine based Medium combat aircraft can be traced back to late 90’s. That’s even before first flight of the LCA TD-1 had taken place, Medium combat aircraft (MCA) then was a tailless delta design with two engines, combined with a thrust vectoring control capability.

    Aircraft was designed keeping in mind LCA-Tejas Delta wings and was a direct derivative from LCA , as per original idea it was supposed to have maximum spare and design commodity with Tejas at that time. Main purpose was to replace the aging Jaguar & MiG-27 fleet from the Indian Air force, original design weight was supposed to be less than 20 tonne. And was supposed to be a Strike aircraft with secondary role of a point defence fighter , In Beginning very small team of Scientist were working on it which was privately funded by ADA from its own budget, but without Tejas proving its mettle first, India air force nor Government of India was Interested to seriously consider this Proposal by ADA, till Tejas Program started gaining popularity among IAF and Defence Ministry whole MCA Project was in cold storage and put under back burner only to revived again in mid-2004-5. A twin-engine delta wing version was been shelved by ADA then.

    MCA 2.0 aka Next Gen Fighter aircraft (NGFA) – MCA got a new name “Next Generation Fighter Aircraft “on recommendation from the Secretary, Defence Production. DRDO and ADA again began to work on MCA aka NGFA in Mid-2006 after initial success of Tejas and with the backing of the government. Indian Air Force asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features. larger team of scientist were assigned to work on the Program, even in this period there was no funding from the Government but a request for Proposal was asked to ascertain if the project can be viable. This was completely new design based on low observability design elements. First look at the aircraft was only available in 2009 when a wind tunnel model was displayed in Aero India 2009 for the first time; Aircraft featured Serpentine air intakes with reduced RCS, and Internal Weapons Bay.

    Earlier Design of MCA (MCA 1.0) was supposed to be a 4.5 Gen aircraft with larger payload , Range and powered by two Kaveri engine, but new MCA (MCA 2.0) had added stealth elements (Semi – stealth) with frontal section getting more Stealth element and also with Reduced Cross Section (RCS) , and with Empty weight of 17 tonne along with 2 tonne internal Weapons and 4 tonne of Fuel , new MCA could have MTOW (Maximum Take of weight) of 22 tonne powered by two Kaveri thrust vectoring engine based on Snecma’s M88-3 core producing 90k of thrust .

    AMCA 3.0 (Advance Medium combat aircraft) – Indian Air force after studying ADA’s Proposal and after working out its own Air Staff requirements (ASR) for the AMCA issued its ASR to DRDO and ADA in April 2010. Indian air forces ASR threw few surprises for MCA Project, like a demanding customer which IAF has been all this year came up with more stringent requirements. some of the Requirements asked by the IAF in its ASR are below and how MCA (2.0) became AMCA

    1) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight.
    2) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.
    3) AESA Radar
    4) Semi – Stealth is not an option, IAF wants it to be fully stealthy aircraft with low RCS.
    5) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it stealthier
    6) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars, Engines, and Avionics)

    7) Multi-Role all weather stealth aircraft (Earlier idea by ADA was a Strike aircraft with other capabilities)

    8 ) Twin pilot configured

    ADA is currently studying the ASR put forward by Indian air force and officially will began work on AMCA in mid-2011, MCA (2.0) design will get further optimization of airframe shaping to further enhance Stealth in it, it will also get further treatment to reduce its IR Signature through Nozzle design, better Bay cooling along with reduction on exhaust temperature from the engine nozzles, special coatings for polycarbonate canopy to make AMCA India’s first stealth fighter aircraft.

    ADA has asked for 18 months to further improve the Airframe changes required to meet ASR issued by the IAF, other than the wind tunnel model displayed in Aero India 2009 there are more three other variants which never has been displayed yet, DRDO is currently planning three Prototypes of AMCA and two production series trial jets which will carry out initial test flights. ADA has promised first flight of AMCA by 2017 which looks highly unlikely, since ADA will need to work on Airframe optimization first and if it fails to get better optimization on stringent requirements laid down by IAF then it might have to work on completely new design itself . $2 billion funding is set to be allocated over the next three years for its development and ADA already received initial funds to start the project.

    Whole MCA program has seen many changes From a 4.5 Gen aircraft to Semi-Stealth aircraft to fully stealth aircraft.

    Engine: Plans are to use Two Kaveri engine based on M88-3 (Core) , if the engines are not ready by the time for first flight either Ge’s F-414IN engines which will power Tejas MK-2 will be used or original lower thrust Kaveri engine might be used for Technology demonstrator aircrafts , still clarity on engine part will come in coming years .

    MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter
  5. Vritra
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    Vritra FULL MEMBER

    Long time reader, first time posting: The AMCA model at AeroIndia got me riled up enough to take the step of the first post.
    A couple of things about the display model bother me, when compared to existing 5th gen designs and the wind tunnel model displayed two years ago.
    Firstly, the forward fuselage, namely the nose and the canopy: to me, it looks like they've borrowed it from the LCA, and widened the nose slightly. The wind tunnel model showed a forward fuselage very F-22ish in design, with a sleeker, less angular canopy and wide nose to house an AESA. Can this model be taken as a serious indication to what the initial demo/production model of the AMCA would look like?

    Secondly, the wings: Looks very similar to the Flanker/Fulcrum design, rather than the swept trapezoidal wings of the Raptor and PAK-FA. Now, trapezoidal wings are supposed to be very advantageous for stealth, though Cheng-Du doesn't seem to agree entirely with that statement. Could it be aerodynamic considerations that led to the wing design being so radically altered from the previous wind tunnel model, or did HAL just get.. um... lazy?

    Finally, there's been absolutely no mention about the engine development. Or there might have been and I haven't caught it, not having had the pleasure of flying back to Bangalore to catch the airshow. Has there been any mention of the GTRE/Snecma M-88 derivative?

    Cheers.
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  6. tariqkhan18
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    tariqkhan18 Administrator Staff Member

    Welcome barkmarket,

    About time you joined in, as we need more members. :rolleyes:

    I am not sure if anything is done regarding the design of AMCA. It is going to take a whole lot of time, and the aircraft will clearly not be the same.

    I dont think India has the capability of designing a 5th generation aircraft yet, and therefore only after significant contribution through PAK-FA will there be any progress towards AMCA.

    But i like your observations and thank you for sharing them. In case you have missed it, Kaveri will be used for the AMCA.
    1 person likes this.
  7. Vritra
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    Vritra FULL MEMBER

    Thank you for the welcome, and your comments!

    I agree with your statement about India's 5th gen design capabilities, though I'm inclined to think (or hope) that they learned SOMETHING from the LCA/Kaveri disaster. Hopefully, they pump a lot more money into the project and do not waste time acting coy about developmental problems. Hopefully they do pick up useful tips about RAMs, stealth shaping and next gen avionics from the PAK-FA, especially considering HAL's contribution to the aircraft.

    What I was wondering about the M-88 cored Kaveri is how useful it would be... the IAF is searching for an engine with a 90-95kN capacity, while the proposed Kaveri with the M-88 core is said to be in the range of 85kN. Not exactly up to the mark.
  8. CONNAN
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    CONNAN FULL MEMBER

    AERO INDIA: Roadmap revealed for Medium Combat Aircraft

    The head of India's Aeronautical Development Agency yesterday revealed key details of the roadmap for development of the proposed indigenous medium combat aircraft (MCA) in an interview with Flight Daily News.

    ADA will complete a feasibility study on the MCA by the end of 2011. The study will be submitted to the Indian government and air force, and discuss key aspects of the programme, says PS Subramanyam, programme director at the ADA.

    The study will consider several areas: the number of MCA prototypes, prototype timelines, funding, and production schedules for the final aircraft.

    "The MCA will be in flight trials by end of the decade, and it will be inducted by the middle of the next decade," says Subramanyam.

    TEJAS, Aeronautical Development Agency

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    India's Medium Combat Aircraft will be larger than the Tejas (top), but smaller than the FGFA, Indian variant of the developmental Sukhoi PAK FA (bottom)

    Subramanyam also discussed how the MCA will fit into the Indian air force's future force structure. It will be a 20t aircraft with a 1,000km range, fitting between the 10t, 500km range of the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas, and the 30t, 1,500km range of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), an Indian variant of the developmental Sukhoi PAK FA.

    Therefore, Subramanyam says, the MCA "does not clash" with the FGFA. He says the MCA will be comparable to the Lockheed Martin F-35, and the FGFA comparable to the F-22 Raptor.

    The MCA will be a single seat fighter. A two seat version will be developed, but primarily as a trainer. A naval variant is not envisaged, but Subramanyam foresees a requirement for a 20t aircraft for India's future indigenous aircraft carriers. A naval variant of the Tejas was rolled out in mid-2010. It is likely to have its first flight this year.

    In a recent interview with Flight Daily News, IAF Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik said the MCA will be a medium weight combat aircraft with low observable features and a payload capability of more than five tons. It will have swing role capability and "provide greater flexibility in the application of aerospace power".

    The ADA has previously said the MCA will have "serpentine-shaped" air intakes, internal weapons bays, and advanced radomes to increase its stealth features. Radar-absorbing composites and paints will supplement the design.

    It will be powered by two Kaveri engines optimized for low observable characteristics. The Kaveri, which has suffered considerable delays, is still in development, and will eventually replace General Electric engine in the Tejas.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/article...dmap-revealed-for-medium-combat-aircraft.html
  9. tariqkhan18
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    tariqkhan18 Administrator Staff Member

    DRDO is cooperating with Snecma in order to provide extra boost in thrust.
  10. Dilemma
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    Dilemma FULL MEMBER

    DRDO is going to use Snecma's M-88 core to be used on the Kaveri. This will hopefully help it increase thrust and help it sustain it.
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