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AMCA: Updates and Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by DaRk KnIght, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    okay if you think these as 'exceptional' in timeframe of 2020 i am sorry i am not convinced
    there isnt anything unique about such things its just matter of apllying things which already exists
    do you know when computing requirements of f-22 raptor were drawn such technology didnt even existed
     
  2. Psynex

    Psynex FULL MEMBER

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    Yes the list may be exceptional now but what about in 2030 or even 2050. In fact the list you have mentioned is nothing new or exceptional since all of them are available now.

    • HMDS is already being used by many aircrafts, Ex: Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35, JAS 39 Gripen, A-10C etc.
    • Fly-by-light or Fly-by-optics is already being used by Mitsubishi ATD-X
    • Network between aircraft is already in use by F22 and others. So nothing new here.

    So the question is what new tech does AMCA bring to the table. What is unique about AMCA?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  3. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    we both are saying the same thing! there wont be anything exceptional about AMCA it will be just an ordinary airplane which ,may be fine dealing with pakistan or china in conjunction with FGFA
    i am myself not very happy for criticizing INDIA but here everybody seems so relieved about its capabilities that they are comparing it with F-35 JSF what a joke!
     
  4. Psynex

    Psynex FULL MEMBER

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    F35 has already completed many trials, soon to start production and AMCA is still in the drawing boards. How can these two be compared as equals?
     
  5. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    they are compared capability wise
    just think f-35's AESA radar is superior than F-22's and it can even jam F-22's can we build something like that??
     
  6. Psynex

    Psynex FULL MEMBER

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    The problem in the end comes down to the education system which is flawed. We cant expect new tech when the education system is based on memorization. Our system needs to change and become research oriented like most other developed countries. A university is supposed to be a center of learning not a center of memorization.
     
  7. Psynex

    Psynex FULL MEMBER

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    That is exactly my point. An aircraft that is is being developed in 2011 must outclass an aircraft that started development in 1980s.
     
  8. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    “Mass production of fifth generation fighter jets in China unlikely”
    Published: 11 January, 2011, 23:12

    China has confirmed it has conducted a successful test flight of its new stealth fighter. Following on the heels of the US and Russia, it is now the third country to put a stealth prototype into the air.
    The plane flew for about 15 minutes over an airfield in the southwestern city of Chengdu. China's last domestic jet, the J-10 fighter, was following behind as a chase plane, AP reported.

    The test flight comes on the second day of the visit of US Defense Secretary Robert Gates to the country.

    According to director of the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Ruslan Pukhov, despite all the noise surrounding the test flight, mass production of fifth generation fighter jets in China is unlikely.

    ”Both American and Russian fifth generation aircrafts are indigenous or largely indigenous,” he said. “As for Chinese, we are sure that many subsystems are taken from Russia and from some other countries, both legally and illegally. That is why this aircraft is not largely indigenous, and even if they would be successfully tested, it will be very difficult to launch a mass production because what you can steal, buy, procure for a single prototype or for a couple of prototypes, it would be difficult to do that for mass serial production.”


    http://http://rt.com/news/china-stealth-fighter-jet/
     
  9. jha

    jha 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Lot of speculations and skepticism going on here..

    Why are people expecting it to better Raptor.. Raptor is and will be the best plane available for at least 15 years.. Decades of experience of Lockheed of churning out world class fighters is behind this where as we have just started..
     
  10. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    true!!!
    but when its about a matter of national security no stone should be left unturned
    actually AMCA is not being compared with F-22 raptor its development programme is being compared here
    raptor's development begin in 1985 and 90% was completed by 1999 cant we have expectations with AMCA in 2020?
     
  11. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Correction: it is a matter of applying things that already exist to military fighter aircraft. I'm not sure if you read that report, but fly-by-light capacity isn't exactly a common avionic feature, nor is a neural network of computer systems, rather than having it centralized.

    Though I'm sure you not being impressed will thoroughly depress the Indian institutes, sending them in a spiral of self-pity, depression, alcoholism, and eventual accidental death by choking on their own puke. :disagree:

    No.

    Stealth: Existed in B2 and F-117, also in rudimentary form in the SR-71.
    Internal bays: See previous statement.
    AESA Radar: ground based systems development had already begun.
    EW: Existed for ages before the YF-22 flew.
    Supercruise: Not a new concept, used in Concorde, Charger, English Electric Lightning.
    Thrust Vectoring: Several experiments carried out by major nations, utilizing both nozzles and paddle-type vectoring. Space shuttles also used thrust vectoring.

    As for the Raptor's 'computing requirements', they weren't very unique. Rather inefficient, actually, but that really wasn't a concern. Plus they're based on '80s IBM technology, so they aren't technologically pathbreaking either.

    [​IMG]

    Obviously, you didn't read what I wrote properly.

    Firstly, I said that the HUD would be disposed off. I did not say that HMDS would be the new tech, I said that they'd project all the information usually displayed on the HUD and MFDs directly into the HMDS, effectively ending the need for either.

    Secondly, Fly-by-light still hasn't actually been achieved, not effectively. And the ATD-X isn't in the air, won't be for a while, and isn't anything more than an alpha-state plan with a few full scale mockups displayed.

    Thirdly: The networking I referred to was intra-aircraft, not between two different aircraft. Meaning that the computer system is spread out through the entire bird, much like a neural network. Improving performance, reliability in a combat situation, allowing system abilities to be increased exponentially, effectively giving the fighter 'self aware'.

    And FYI, the Raptor is incapable of networking with any other aircraft but another Raptor. A 'safety feature'.

    So what does the AMCA bring that is unique? It is the only 5th gen concept that is way too large a project for the concept designers to achieve as of now. It's progenitors, as it were, haven't even managed to get the Tejas into the air, let alone the proposed engine for the AMCA. I'm not gonna hold my breath for it get into the air. And I'm not operating under the impression that it will be superior to every other 5th generation fighter in every way. I do think, however, that it will be better than the F-35. Which is basically a dud.

    F-35's radar isn't even close to superior to the F-22, it just supports more A2G modes. Its detection range is about 40% lower, practically ineffective in the rear hemisphere, and ultimately will require a lot of growth before it becomes as effective as the F/A-18 Super Hornet's APG-79s, let the F-22's radar.

    As for whether India can build an effective airborne AESA radar for a fighter, not right now. Years of experience are needed, but pursuing multiple projects at the same time, each at a different technological level, seems to be a fairly smart way of going about it. As of now, all of the projects put together result in experience being gained in AEW&CS AESAs, ground based AESA systems, naval AESA systems, and fighter-based AESA system research. So they know what AESA is. They've just gotta miniaturize it.

    And please, stop thinking of the F-35 as some godly machine.
     
  12. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    fly-by-optics is okay at least intra-aircraft communication will be faster and jam proof but basically its the central computer which matters the most
    flight software and supporting hardware needs to be exceptional.only good communication lines won't do the job
    will AMCA will have;
    1)advanced self check sensors
    2)intelligent failure report system?

    i myself don't feel good about criticizing them but i want to see them doing wonderful
    why don't we reaslise that we are sitting on time-bomb which will certainly go boom one day and to ensure our successful existence we have to work hard and build exceptional things every time
    we cant live with delays of decades


    here i was talking about the computing power of on-board computers not the ones involved in development
    they used IBM 80 software because this is what they had at that time.and you know there is lot of difference between then and now

    also no one outside united states knew programming in IBM 80 software so this was the best and most secure option to prevent any hacking etc


    to make a better machine we have to make arrangements so as to make it most effective and not just do everything that is available
    so cockpit should be designed after proper research on all what is required & what is best under various situation and tactics

    i do not agree that AMCA will beat F-35 in everything
    do you think AMCA will out do their avionics,electronic-warfare capabilities,radar etc i dont think so :disagree:
     
  13. Punit Shukla

    Punit Shukla 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    By guess, Status of AMCA in relation to F35 should be- Like the relation between LCA & F16- block 60. Although the gap should be less, as India will have experience of LCA & FGFA.
     
  14. simplystupid

    simplystupid Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Are you discussing about neural network or gird of processor / controllers ?
     
  15. Psynex

    Psynex FULL MEMBER

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    @BarkMarket

    Nobody is telling that AMCA should not use any tech that is available today. All we're saying is that they should try and come up with some techs that are our own which other countries have no access to and improve upon current techs. Invest more in research so that we don't have to depend on other countries and their second hand hardware with limited ToT. The end result is we don't want AMCA to be an average plane when it is ready around 2025/2030. Other countries are not going to be sitting idle and USA is already moving ahead with its plans for a 6th gen fighter. So we need to do our best to catch up.
     

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