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AMCA: Updates and Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by DaRk KnIght, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    With weapons & life cycle support or just fly away cost? If its with weapons & life cycle cost which is comparable to Rafales then I bet India will definitely buy. Or do not mislead by comparing fly away cost of Fat-35 with Rafales all inclusive cost.
     
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  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Kind of doubt Rafale is all that inclusive, expect what India thinks they are buying and what they are getting are two different things.
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Don't bet on that mate, both are mainly interested in looks, not in substance. Do you think the PM would reject a chance to brag about buying a stealth fighter if some offest (that then can be called Make in India again) are included?
    Similarly, Trump wants to make business and any export deal means job's in the US, so both can play it to apear good for both sides. The question is only, what our forces say and what the US government says, because other than NATO countries only closen US allies seems to get it approved for export.
     
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  4. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Rafales fly away cost is around 90 million dollars rest is weapons life cycle support 2 bases, hardening for nuclear weapons delivery. These Rafales will be with SFC which is responsible for nuclear weapons delivery.
     
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  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    edge in aerial combat

    Along with the 36 French fighters, IAF will also get a better weapons package, and p The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of seven years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. he standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%. What do you think spares for a period of seven years at initial cost would mean?
     
  6. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    As I have said these Rafales are for SFC for nuclear weapons delivery, would America provide Fighter s for nuclear weapons delivery and will it allow India to use it in war against Pakistan or China if it clashes with US agenda.
     
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  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Wonder if Russia could buy ships from French if there was sanctions. Maybe not.

    What do you think spares for a period of seven years at initial cost would means?
     
  8. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    There is a compensation which we need to pay for the USA support for NSG and approval via which we entered MTCR. The quid pro quo includes deals including civil and military side..

    The beauty is we can drag any deals for 15 years (MMRCA) and scrap it as well ...

    The question is for such support if we had to buy i would have always preferred a transport plane like say C130 XJ (stripped down version and common favourite of me and @Abingdonboy ) to be made under MII for a 50-70 plane deal to replace all An32s

    if POTUS insists only on make in USA product and for our indian case we try to show 30% component being made say in Tata aero for Lockheed planes some fuselage part just to meet MII requirements on paper, then who is at loss finally?

    This is where finally PM Modi will have to take a very concrete call what he wants.. the MO seems to be talks and when pushed to the corner again switch the plane names from F16 to F35. the F35 has even more restrictions and thus that will become the bargaining tool for either getting a proper MII (theoretically) for F16s or sell the story that its F35 and we dont have MIC capable to make it in India.

    In between Saab will be pushed to see how it can also provide us Gripen E with Brazilian parts in order to make USA and Sweden fight it out... using this nexus, France will be pressured to better the terms of more Rafales.

    Ultimately its a high stake table of poker..
     
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes and the former government as well as the forces were against that, but then again the forces doesn't necessarily get what they want these days. We see far more political deals and who better to do a political deal with, then with Trump?
    Not that I support the F35, but when we look at the deals of the last 3 years and the policies, one simply has to assess, that the chances are there at the moment.

    Yeah, we really have mastered that haven't we? IAF built a professional reputation in the world, because of the way they conducted the MMRCA and after the cancellations, every news or discussion is back to, Mig 21s, crashes and never ending Indian tenders.

    We already are making the C130J parts in India, but going for a bigger order would kill MTA and we badly need at least one indigenously or jointly developed transport aircraft to fall back. But I do thought about about alternatives too. ;)

    The Indian defence industry, because basic manufacturing of parts will keep us dependent as an future importer.
    I just searched ab bit about the M777 deal, to see how it went down and what I missed. And the BAE site stated, that they will build an "assembly nd integration" plant with Mahindra. That means we get most of the gun from UK and the US, some build in India and put them all together at Mahindra. But that doesn't get us any artillery building know how for the future, nor is Mahindra committed to artillery development. All future upgrades of the weapon, will be done by BAE, which gives them a constant income. The US/UK companies might be better than Russians in after sale support, but we only shift the dependence from one side to another. It's like RBI governor Rajan said back than, it's better to make FOR India, than just make IN India.

    Saab actually impressed me with their persistence, even though they were rejected, they kept themselfs committed to Indian defence. One have to give them that! Also in terms of innovation, the Swedes are really highly skilled.
     
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  10. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    MTA is officially dead.

    Remember, original deal was regular FMS import. Whatever we got is bonus.

    ATAGS will be a game changer IMO.
     
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  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes with the Russians, really sad but the requirement remains, either we do it alone, or find the right partners.

    Not sure if the gun itself is a game changer, I'm not that into army stuff, but my hopes on the Kalyani group are high! They are afaik the only Indian defence player, that went out and got the necessary foreign know how, for good money. That means they don't just see the artillery field as a project with manufacturing foreign parts in mind, but actually want to play a future role in this field. I do think they can benefit IA big times in future, with or without DRDO for development.
     
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  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    AMCA Powerplant
    [​IMG]

    Source: ADA Annual Report 2015 / 16
     
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  13. Avi

    Avi IDF NewBie

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  14. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Must be a testbed for AMCA and Ghatak projects.

    @Sancho Any idea why ADA is insisting on 2*110kn engine for a medium fighter? Assuming AMCA will have similar MTOW to rafale and EF.
     
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  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The empty weight is higher for stealth fighters, for example a Rafale can choose to carry 3 fuel tanks depending on the mission, a stealth fighter has to carry all fuel tanks internally, even if the mission requires less fuel.
     
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