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Army honours Major who tied Kashmiri to military vehicle

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Agent_47, May 23, 2017.

  1. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    That chat in no way indicate that IAF was banned from using Naplam. Naplam does not come under category of 'chemical weapons' and thus using them or not using them is a tactical decision. That is stated even in that rediff chat.

    They ,probably, were not used because they are not effective, and number of sorties than IAF could make were limited; so why waste sorties with less effective munitions?
     
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    How does a napalm work?

    What are it's effects in High Altitude?

    What are the advantages and disadvantages of using napalm in mountainous terrain in high altitude?
     
  3. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

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    What was the deal with Admiral Bhagwat exactly? I tried to read about the whole incident online, and from what I gathered, he didn't sound like a particularly easy guy to work with? Was he wronged in this case? And if so, why?
     
  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    He was not wrong. He was right, but he was wrong in refusing a political directive as a service chief. That is all.

    http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war-pub-49421

    a good read on IAF's actions.
     
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  5. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Napalm is gasoline suspended in gel. It works by burning like gasoline/petrol would, with a difference that the gel make gasoline stick to surfaces, rather than flow away and get extinguished. It has limited utility when used via flamethrowers due to lack of range, and that utility further reduce when napalm is used in bombs as napalm is not useful against bunkers made of stone, clay,sand, or even dirt, let alone concrete.

    In high altitudes, it effects would be even less. Napalm is a slow burner (compared to explosives) and depends on atmospheric air for combustion. Its effect in rarefied atmosphere would be worse than at sea level. On top of it, mountains have their own weather system with mountain and valley breeze and in windy conditions, its performance could not be controlled as it would move with the wind.

    To reiterate: Napalm is not classified as a chemical weapon. It is avoided only because of its low utility.
     
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  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Incorrect on your reasons of non-employability in High Altitude regions.

    Have you seen the use of incendiary weapons in a rarified atmosphere?

    The effects are more 'potent' and 'gruesome'. In rarified atmosphere, the available oxygen is quickly consumed for the combustion, thereby the additive effect of choking being introduced. So, anyone who is not killed by burning, will potentially die of choking/asphyxiation in a rarified atmosphere.

    India is a signatory to two treaties: the Chemical Warfare Convention (CWC) and the United Nations Protocol on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW), under which incendiary weapons (specifically napalm and white phosphorus) are covered.

    Now, any weapon which is classified as a 'choking/asphyxiating' agent and can result in a fatality, falls in category of Chemical Weapon.

    For you it may be a clear differentiation, perhaps for Vajpayee not so?

    IAF used unguided 57 mm rockets and 80 mm rockets from Mig-21s and Mig-27s in the initial phases of Operation Safed Sagar along with strafing runs from their cannon. The same was amended after the loss of 01 x Mig-27 and 01 x Mig-21 (then Flt Lt now Gp Capt Nachiketa & Sqn Ldr Ahuja respectively). Need for more accurate weapons for stand off targeting was felt. That is how the introduction of Mirage 2000H came about.

    http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war-pub-49421
     
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  7. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    You are mixing two different kind of weapons. Fuel air bombs cause chocking/asphyxiation, not napalm used in outdoor surrounding. Napalm is a slow burner, thus oxygen that it use is replaced by natural circulation/convection. To effectively asphyxiate in open environment, you need a fast burner like fuel-air bomb which operate by completely different principle. Napalm aim to make fuel more viscous, while fuel-air bomb aim at atomization to increase combustion area, for which reduction in viscosity is needed. Napalm could cause chocking only in enclosed areas, which it would not, if dropped from an airplane.

    But CCW does not prohibit use of asphyxiating or even incendiary agents. It only prohibit their use on civilians or on military objective located within a concentration of civilians. It also prohibit their use against forested areas, unless forest is being used to camouflage.

    https://www.un.org/disarmament/geneva/ccw/
    http://unog.ch/80256EDD006B8954/(httpAssets)/B409BC0DCFA0171CC12571DE005BC1DD/$file/PROTOCOL+III.pdf

    And Napalm is not registered as a chemical weapon under CWC, and neither is it considered an asphyxiating agent. It is considered incendiary agent. For an agent to be considered a chocking agent under CWC, chocking should be primary chemical effect of an agent capable of wide dispersion, not secondary effect.

    Fuel-Air bombs are not classified as chemical weapons for same reason.

    That is a completely different point. Need for improved accuracy and stand-off capability is independent of type of warhead being used.

    What was needed in situation like Kargil are munitions that could penetrate protection of bunkers. They could either be rockets, or standoff bunker busters.Using Napalm on bunkers (even those made from sandbags) is not efficient due to limitation of sortie rate (thus maximum value need to be derived per-sortie) and warhead size on munitions carried by aircrafts.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Where is it that you are missing out the point I was making?

    A FAE also uses oxygen to burn and so does Napalm. Now extrapolate it to the availability of Thermobaric (FAE) bombs in IAF's inventory at the time (1999) and to the existence of Napalm in the inventory at the time, and of course their cost effectiveness at the time. [Hint: US used Napalm in Gulf War 1 and 2 ie even in 2003).

    Sticking to what you have just posted, at 15000 ft ASL, the average height of engagement and which is classified as Category 3 High Altitude Area by Indian Army, the advantage of Napalm was in terms of it being a gel based and strong adherent material. This allows for it to 'percolate' into the most inaccessible portions of a target area, and in the specific case, the target area was rocky mountainous territory with plenty of narrow crevices, caves and overhangs/outcrops providing excellent defilade from direct/indirect fire.

    Being adherent, the retarded ignition allows for better dissemination in such an environment. On the other hand a FAE is aerosolised weapon which can also go quickly into such remote areas, but due to relatively faster combustion, may not be very effective comparatively. Mind you, the overpressure is already negated in this case as I did point out the terrain. Hence a sole reliance on overpressure in such an area is fraught with mixed results being a party spoiler.

    Now, in the rarified atmospheric conditions, oxygen will be used up very quickly, especially if you are in a dead end cavity. An FAE may simply burn up into half a dead end cavity for example, and asphyxiate the person hidden in other half as it consumes the oxygen, but he may survive if there is even a small opening on the other side. In napalm, in the same setting, the probability goes down tremendously as it adheres to the individual and kills more by thermal effects.

    Not an issue. I know that. India ratified the accord. Maybe Vajpayee gave an order because of that? Who knows!

    I did say

    I clearly recall him calling them 'inhumane' weapons!

    Read what I wrote again, and understand what point I was making. Revert in case still unclear.


    Er, have you studied US air effort in Afghanistan? IAF's 'effectiveness' in Kargil? Have you studied the reason why US Army and Special Forces inducted M3 CarL Gustav after studying tactics of IA for use in Afghanistan?


    What do you think?
     
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  9. Pushyamitra

    Pushyamitra IDF NewBie

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    8 minutes are too much !

    IT : I love the way a Chinese people Take care of jihadis. (NO 'pun intended)
     
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Takes time for aircraft to take off and hit ... not yet invented an aircraft which is permanently airborne :D
     
  11. Vyom

    Vyom Captain GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    looks like you were right, he has lost it totally.

    Panag.jpg
     
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  12. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    Gogoi is of Ahom stock. Bad idea to throw anything at this man.
     
  13. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    He is going down Maj Gen Shahbeg's route (of going psycho :D), another fine officer of IA (and a master of built up area fighting) who went berserk in Golden Temple. Single handedly responsible for the defences which caught IA unawares in initial phases of assault.
     
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  14. PeegooFeng41

    PeegooFeng41 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Gogoi should be given Nobel peace + physics prize. Inventor of a self-repairing reactive armor for peaceful purposes.
     

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