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Army hunts for new sniper rifle to replace Dragunov

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Blackjay, Dec 8, 2016.

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  1. SSDD

    SSDD IDF NewBie

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    It is sniper rifle. Not Designated MR. For Sniper rifle India should go for .50 cal. m 82 Barrett is best.
     
  2. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    The 50 Cal is an excellent sniper, but I don't know if it's just me, or India's Army seems to prefer lighter, smaller snipers than a Barrett. So idk how well such a big, heavy gun fits in with their combat style.
     
  3. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    DMR and Sniper Rifle are actually quite interchangeable. 50 Cal can travel far, but actually is not very suited for long range marksmanship. Based on requirements and precision platform, 338 lapua, 6.5 creedmoor, 300 winmag, 7.62x51N, 7.62x54R, even .243 win can be excellent Sniper calibers as long as they can shoot 1MoA.
    Given that both of you prefer the semi auto action of Barret M82, discussing bolt vs semi auto is irrelevant. Make no mistake, I too am a big fan of shooting 50 BMG although I have just shot 3 rounds in a M95 in a 100 yard pit, it is a very challenging round to shoot over long distances. Read Chris Kyle's book if you get a chance, his go to mule was a 300 winmag, and rightly so, given the distances we are faced with Indian army should seriously look at multiple platforms for Sniper solutions than just one size fits all type of deal.
     
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  4. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Who wouldn't, even lugging around my relatively light weight 308 and a bag pack in the forest for day on a hunt can be exhausting, think of the soldiers who are carrying a sniper rifle and a secondary carbine, with those huge bag packs.

    Well if truly wanted a heavy system, there is always the NTW20, that gun is the hole-mole one gun to rule all caliber. When we don't use 50bmg machine guns, i don't see the point of using 50 cal Sniper systems.
     
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  5. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    It would definitely make sense to have a mix of heavies like the 50 c Barrett for certain fixed positions where you have a spotter etc.; with the majority being more lightweight and mobile snipers where a single guy can hit, carry and run (& no spotter needed).
     
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  6. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    For almost every dedicated sniper, you need a spotter. The single (& no spotter needed) is a "Designated Marksman".
     
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  7. Gessler

    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I can see at least 3 distinct requirements as far precision rifles go;

    • Anti-Material Rifle: Deneal NTW/OFB Vidhwansak in 20x110 and/or 12.7x108mm (latter will allow commonality with Kord MG should we procure it, thanks to the pictures @MilSpec drew up)
    • Sniper Rifle: .338 Lapua; probably IWI DAN 338 (What's your opinion on this rifle?)
    • Designated Marksman Rifle: Semi-auto (7.62x51 NATO preferable I hope), further orders of IWI Galatz (Galil sniper), or a new DMR like R11 RSASS.
     
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  8. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I don't know much about IWI Dan 338. I shot 338Lm quite a long time ago, and we had some scope issues so can't comment much about it.

    7.62x51 and 7.62x54R are two calibers I own and love and I can comment on them. So I am going to pitch something different.

    If we wan't to biuy 7.62x51 nato DMR rifle, then I don't really see why we should look a Galil, we have built the SLR metric pattern, which is nothing but the FN FAL, the right arm of the free world. I don't see why we can just build FN FALS, they are excellent excellent rifles, if anything we can change over to the FAL imbel style rifle and they are great rifles and can make excellent Designated Marksman Rifles.

    Now if we look at 7.62x54R, we do field PKM's and have commonality with the SVD Dragunov, and when it comes to accuracy and repeat-ability it's not a slouch. Ask any gunner in america, you will see him picking a surplus russian SVD over any ScarH or galil any given day.

    Now why am I being cheap with pitching FAL and SVD's as replacement. First- Don't fix if not broken, both the system are fielded, have spares, armory technicians know how to fix them, troops know how to use them effectively, know the tricks of the gun. From previous posts my ideal choice would be to field a 6.5 grendel, if a new caliber is not coming into effect and we are sticking to a caliber such as the 7.62x51 Nato, why not use tried tested platforms that have excelled in Indian conditions, have already passed trials for Indian ops. For the SLR, we do not need to qualify the system, we can field it right away, and not have to go through any training, documentations, spares same applies for the SVD. We need to draw some inspiration from mk14mod0, these were vietnam era 7.62x51 Nato M14's, dusted off and used in the iraq war.

    If the M14 :

    [​IMG]

    can turn into mk14 Mod 0 EBR
    [​IMG]

    Why can't these the SLR's

    [​IMG]
    Turn into something like this

    [​IMG]

    @PARIKRAMA @Hellfire any suggestions?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  9. Fenrir

    Fenrir FULL MEMBER

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    Not just used by Israel. Norwegian forces love it.
    [​IMG]

    The .338 Lapua fills the gap between the lighter 7.62 and HK417.
    [​IMG]

    If you're willing to tolerate the site, I did a rundown of what's going on in this picture. Pretty interesting tactics being employed in Western squad-sniper stacks.

    And the larger, heavier and more expensive .50 Barret M82.
    [​IMG]

    People seem to be suggesting that .50 is the way to go, but that's simply ridiculous. The MRAD and similar .338 rifles are extended-range and lethality augments to the .308, and support squad level tactics. .50 rifles are in a class of their own and are used tactically different. They are not used to support maneuver warfare and are not upgrades over rifles like the SVD.

    Sure .50 is more lethal out to a longer distance then is .308 or .338, and .338 can be used for anti-material operations, but the discrepancy in cost, size, weight and tactics makes them ill-suited for the requirements India is looking for, hence the search for a .338 rifle rather then a .50 to replace the SVD.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
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  10. AbRaj

    AbRaj Captain FULL MEMBER

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    @Fenrir what's your choice if you have to select a DMR and A long range Sniper rifle for Indian armed forces for using at LOC against relentless territorists trying to enter day and night and a well armed and trained Pak Forces (sometimes SSG) hell bent on making way for them .
    I've read the link you posted and find it very helpful.
    And what do you think we should do to prevent soldiers being sniped and ambushed by PA+ terrorists at the border
     
  11. Inactive

    Inactive Guest

    We use AMR in similar role ... produced as vidhwansak.

    reKJlzH.jpg

    The numbers indicate issue as sector stores and not as part of normal routine outfit
     
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  12. Fenrir

    Fenrir FULL MEMBER

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    I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with the terrain, climate or altitude of the LOC. Different rifles excel in different situations, such as bolt-action in cold weather or semi-auto in forested environments. A few pics of the LOC would help me greatly, then I'll assess and give you a proper answer.
     
  13. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Following is the line of control.

    [​IMG]


    Topography:
    upload_2017-1-5_18-43-26.png upload_2017-1-5_18-44-21.png


    Temperature:

    upload_2017-1-5_18-47-49.png upload_2017-1-5_18-48-19.png


    Some images from the LOC...


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    Mountainous climates, high winds, Winter snow usually reduces foot mobility across the LOC, Summer melts can cause flood plains to see small tributaries, as the elevation can go from about 8000 ft down to 3155 ft, the vegetation also varies from conifer to dense forest to prairie shrubs in some areas...
     
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  14. Fenrir

    Fenrir FULL MEMBER

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    So basically like Norge, just with more heat come summer (our temps don't get above 17 c). Makes things pretty easy then since I know what works in those climates and what doesn't.

    For a DMR anything reliable and rapid firing will work. The SCAR series has had bolt issues in colder climates, where the bolt would seize up and has round ejection issues, then again so too did the HK417. A winterized rifle would be beneficial, or one with looser tolerances like the SVD.

    There's a few to choose from. I know the HK417N works in similar cold, windy, wet and mountainous environments because that's exactly what Norge is - cold, windy, wet and mountainous. The whole nation is basically one large mountain and on average Norge is more humid then is India.

    [​IMG]

    The US military in Afghanistan has had great success with the M14 series as well. These include the M14 EBR and M39 EMR. The US is a reliable supplier where India has in the past had issues with European firms when it came to corruption or kickbacks, so this angle would need to be examined, but I'm not really the person qualified to do that. The M14 EBR can even come in a bullpup configuration if that's your thing.

    [​IMG]

    And don't let my lack of interest in the weapon dissuade you from the SCAR series. These are highly respected, accurate and reliable rifles, though they have had some issues in colder climates.

    [​IMG]

    For the most part any modern DMR-type rifle will suffice. Most, especially those being used by Western militaries which are likely to see varied climates, are quality arms that have been proven capable in any climate they need to function in.

    Looking at the terrain, climate and altitude of the LOC, I can't suggest .308 sniper rifles. For mountainous combat they just lack power, especially against targets operating in forested environments or making use of bunkers. .338 is the way to go if you're looking for a new dedicated sniper weapon. You've already got my views on the MRAD. Being used by Norge I know it'll work in the very similar climate and terrain of the LOC, minus the heat, but Israel's got that covered.

    [​IMG]

    AI has a new rifle, the AX338. Knowing AI, it's going to be one hell of a weapon system. These guys don't screw around when it comes to precision weapons.

    [​IMG]

    Again pretty much any modern .338 rifle will work and I recommend such over .308 caliber weapons. .338 outranged .308 by a good 150% and retains lethality well over 2000 meters, though accuracy will suffer at those ranges. .338 can also serve as an AMR in place of the larger, heavier and more expensive .50 rifles, but would be limited to closer engagements or light-skinned targets, though their penetration still outclasses .308 rounds significantly.

    Like the 50 cal Raufoss Mk 211 - green-tip = high explosive, AP.

    [​IMG]

    The Lapua does have a high explosive, armor piercing round which also helps to lessen the necessity of .50 rifles for AMR duties, just at reduced ranges. In essence a reloadable, long-range hand grenade.

    If you're interested in directly upgrading from the SVD and want a DMR/Sniper rifle that's semi-auto and .338, those exist too. They're less accurate then bolt-action guns, but typically lighter and fire more rapidly making squad support lethal out to longer ranges using the heavier Lapua round versus the lighter 7.62 of the SVD or HK417/SCAR-H MK 20 Mod 0.

    The Kivaari is one such rifle.

    [​IMG]

    As is the MK-18 Mjolnir.

    [​IMG]

    And if you want to know my personal views or want me to answer the question more directly and not just give you options then here's my thoughts - HK417 as a DMR and MRAD as a sniper rifle. They are proven to work in the high altitude mountains, forested environments, wind, snow, ice and humidity of Norge and the heat of South Asia and Middle East where Norwegian Forces use them all without being problematic, jamming or seizing up. They are very reliable and accurate weapons and I can attest to their quality personally as I've trigger time on both - one of the perks of being a former service women and working in the defense industry. I get time on ranges while on company business.

    I was issued an HK417 for aerial gunnery during my time in the RNoAF.

    In addition to my previous post where I linked to an external source, I have an analysis on some of the above systems as well, if anyone's interested.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  15. saumyasupratik

    saumyasupratik FULL MEMBER

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    Barret already has a foothold in the Indian Market with M107 being in service with the Force One, the newer M107A1 being in service with BSF and IA (or atleast for trials with a Btn of Jak LI) and the M98B (MRADs predecessor) also being in service with NSG and Mumbai and Maharashtra Police.

    I believe the Norwegian Army team (who were running the MRADs) won the European Best Sniper Squad Competition 16 held at Grafenwoehr, Germany.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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