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Attack Helicopters of IAF - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), AH-64D Apache : Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by flanker143, Mar 16, 2011.

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  1. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Very very deceptive figure that will likely factor in many ancillary costs besides, LSPs will always cost signifcantly more than mass produced production a/c.
     
  2. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    The Ka-226 deal wasn't down to Parrikar, it was clearly a high level political move to placate Russia. Just about the only thing they can consistently sell to us anymore is helicopters, and after they got blown out of the water by the Apache and Chinook, the Russians were really reeling. So since you don't really need a cutting edge LUH the way you need a super advanced gunship (i.e. Apache), Modi probably made a slight compromise on quality to toss the Russians a bone.

    Considering that there's a MII deal for those helicopters as well, I really bet it must have been Modi who made the call.
     
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  3. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The K-226 is far, far, far superior to the helicopter it lost to because of the L1 clause. That's why the deal was canceled and a GTG was started.
     
  4. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Really? So how did the other helicopter win the contest twice? I thought it had won on quality/parameters? Or did it simply win due to pricing?
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Pricing. L1 = price. That's why Parrikar has decided to add a new parameter called T-1. So now T-1 has more weight. Ka-226 would have won if the T-1 was included.
     
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  6. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant Technical Analyst

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    Twin engine pitted against single engine helicopter, do you think it was a fair fight from the start? We invited single engine western rotors to compete against a twin engine non-proven platform. I'm pretty convinced that Ka's will be a nightmare for operational and life cycle costs. Just research on the availability of Ka series operated by IN. This was purely a political decision, similar to the additional Talwar class we have on-order. Let's all hope this decision won't hurt us in the future. If HAL can get their act together, ULH is the way to go for India.

    [​IMG]

    Good Day!
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Just check out the specs on Fennec and Ka-226. Heaven and earth difference.

    Ka-226 can climb faster, climb higher, carry 40% more payload, has more range, cargo space is twice as big and so on.
     
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  8. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The engines are French. And spares won't be a problem if we are going to be the global suppliers of spares for this helicopter.

    The helicopter has been in operation since 2002 in Russia.
     
  9. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant Technical Analyst

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    Still wont make them cheaper to operate? Again how can we boast of its superior performance when it was a twin engine chopper pitted against single engine ones?

    Yes they are in service since 2002 yet only over 30 in service, wondered why?

    https://flightglobal.com/asset/6297/waf/

    Good Day!
     
  10. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It's not the same class of helicoptere, if you want a comparaison with same mass and same power look at the EC-145.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Airbus did not participate with EC145. The choice was made on aircraft that were part of the competition.

    The fact is both Ka-226 and Fennec made it. And among the two, the Ka-226 was far superior. The competition would have been much better if EC145 was included.

    Not participating with the EC145 when Kamov came in with the Ka-226 was a big mistake. I mean, when the Americans offered the F/A-18 in Indian MMRCA, the French quickly came in with the Rafale. Had Dassault not upgraded, we would have been talking about the Typhoon today.
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Bro, it really is a good helicopter. We have operated Kamovs for decades.
     
  13. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    The Ka-226 is going to have a FAR greater lifecycle cost also.

    Whilst I'm glad the "T-1" clause now exists, it should only really be applied to cutting edge weaponary/equipment, for the RSH role having a cheap and readily availble LUH was what was required and the FENNEC would have been the more sensible choice. The Ka-226 fleet will have a much lower sortie generation rate than the FENNEC would have delivered and most of its extra features (modular rear cabin) will be rarely utilised.

    It was a political decsion through and through IMHO, Parrikar can justify it how he likes but any application of critical thinking can see it as a smoke screen.
     
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  14. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Yes and no because this is actually only half of the story.

    For the FENNEC to have been declared L1 in would ALREADY have had to meet the technical requirements of the IAF/IA outlined in their qualitative requirements (QRs), it did EXACTLY what the IAF/IA had said they wanted it to do.

    Yes, it is true under this system any extra capabilities/performance beyond minimum compliance to the QRs recieved no weighting HOWEVER it would then be the fault of the service that created the QRs for not outlining such requirements IF they wanted the eztra performance.

    The reason the EC145 was not offered by Airbus was because of the QRs the IAF/IA put out would have been so narrow that Airbus had no option other than to offer their entry level product (the FENNEC) that was still able to meet the QRs as the EC145 (a more costly product) with its extra features/performance would always have lost out in a L1/L2 situation.
     
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  15. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The Fennec had terrible cargo and ceiling limits. The Ka-226 slaughtered the competition, that's why it was chosen. It wasn't a Modi or Parrikar decision, it was an IAF decision. To date, there's not been a single piece of equipment that the BJP has bought on their own without the forces asking for it.

    Ka-226 won the tender as a T-1. The Russians offered a better deal outside the tender on IAF's request. It's not like the Ka-226 was the IAF's last choice, it was IAF's first choice. Sadly, in the past MoF had first choice decision.

    I don't know how you can call a T-1 a political decision. It simply doesn't make sense.
     

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