Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Attack Helicopters of IAF - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), AH-64D Apache : Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by flanker143, Mar 16, 2011.

Tags:
  1. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    8,886
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    I hope I am wrong but I really do not see a bright future for the Ka-226 in India. Not only have the Russians fought "make in India' and failed to get on board with the same gusto as others (France for instance), they have then gone and picked HAL as their production partner despite the fact that HAL has a competing product (LUH) in the works but on top of that the product itself is poised to create a greater logistical strain on its users thanks to being twin engined. The Ka-226 is going to be pegged agaisnt the HAL LUH at every stage and with HAL already investing heavily in the type and creating infrastructure to churn it out I think it is in for a hard time.

    600 LUH/RSH are needed by the IAF/IA, the HAL LUH and Ka-226 have 200 (aprox) orders each and will be competing for the 100% follow on order, at this point why wouldn't the HAL LUH receive that order (if it is able to deliver its proposed specs)?
     
    Bregs and R!CK like this.
  2. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    8,886
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    Bro, I am not privy to inside information so I have no idea which product the IAF favoured, I was simply trying to explain the rationale behind the FENNEC's selection and by the previous system it is perfectly justified. Even if the Ka-226 had better technical performance vis a vis the FENNEC, that is IRRELEVENT under the L1/L2 selection criteria, the FENNEC would have met the IAF/IA requirements for minimum cargo and ceiling limits. Yes it may seem like a rather flawed system but this is what we had and how the decsion was made, one coul dargue that if the IAF/IA wanted the performance of the Ka-226 then they should have outlined more stringent QRs using the Ka-226 as the benchmark and then we could have had a fair competition as Airbus would have offered a more competitive offer.

    Let's not forget, Airbus offered up the FENNEC because this is what they thought met the IAF/IA RFP criteria NOT because the Russians offered the Ka-226.


    How can it not be a political decsion? The Govt had to step in and entirely disregard the L1 selection.

    I'm surprised that Airbus aren't more peeved, they did everything according to the rules the Indian estblishment has crafted and then they had the deal taken out from under them.

    + if the GoI/BJP really had awarded the contract to the Russians because they simply offered a better product they have been terrible at communicating this messege.
     
    Bregs and R!CK like this.
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    8,587
    Likes Received:
    3,324
    LUH is not a competitor to the Ka-226T because of the performance disadvantage.

    As mentioned before, Ka-226 was chosen for its huuuggge performance advantage. Safety and transportation advantages also helped.

    The Fennec was inferior to it in every way except cost.
     
    Abingdonboy likes this.
  4. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    8,886
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    As I have pointed out bro, this is EXACTLY how the system worked under previous DPP so it is pointless to deride the FENNEC for being "inferior" to

    If Airbus knew they were entering into a performance based T1/T2 competition as opposed to a cost based L1/L2 competition don't you think they would have offered up a more capable product?

    The Ka-226 may offer greater performance figures than the FENNEC but there is no denying that they will also be paying for this (in both upfront cost and lifecycle) and as per the IAF/IA QRs this performance is superfluous to their requirements.
     
    Bregs and R!CK like this.
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    8,587
    Likes Received:
    3,324
    So you'd prefer buying based on bureaucratic red tape versus logic and reason?

    I knew the Modi govt will do good, responsible things in favour of the armed forces even at risk to themselves the minute they cancelled the tender and went for the Ka-226. A lot of people with genuine interest in giving the forces good equipment were happy.

    Canceling the tender in favour of the Ka-226 was the right thing to do for our armed forces. If you see the list of advantages the Ka-226 offered, not even the EC145 or the HAL LUH can offer. The navy isn't even remotely interested in the LUH, that should tell you everything.

    The UPA wouldn't have done this deal because, don't take this the wrong way, people who do not know actual information will attack the govt for no reason. Modi can deal with these attacks, any investigation the opposition launches against him will fail simply because he's made the right decision.

    The govt's being very, very sincere. They are not making political decisions that are detriment to India or the armed forces.

    Tell me this. You know so much about the MMRCA deal. Do you think the govt made the right decision by cancelling the Rafale MMRCA and then going for Rafale GTG? Or do you think it is all political, that Modi is somehow gaining something here?
     
    LonewolfSandeep likes this.
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    8,587
    Likes Received:
    3,324
    The coaxial rotors would have helped the Ka-226 win anyway. The Ka-226 was chosen for its flying qualities. The Russian team demonstrated capabilities that were not possible in a regular helicopter.
     
  7. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Country Flag:
    India
    I am asking about this more weight on 'T-1' part.
     
  8. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Country Flag:
    India
    Ok million dollar question here, HAL will need a new production facility for Ka-226. Who will fund it? Russians or Indian tax payers? Any infrastructure cost incurred by HAL is loaded off to GoI. While a private company could fund the plant , as cheeky as it seems, Russians wanted to lay off the infrastructure costs to Indian taxpayers?

    @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Agent_47

    Good Day!
     
    Bregs likes this.
  9. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    8,886
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    I have no issue with logic and reason being applied and the best systems being selected BUT this should be the case at a systamatic level and shouldn't require political intervention at the last minuet.

    I want a a merit based system to be institionalised and applied across the board not on a case by case basis, otherwise we will continue to see the same sh!t such as the IAF's decsion to opt for the A330 MRTT being discounted for a THIRD time.

    The LUH was never intended to be a naval LUH, it was designed around IAF and IA requirements, not the IN's and the IN is looking to a foreign product with twin engines for over water ops and a slightly greater MTOW (>4 tons vs the LUH's 3).

    I didn't say they were insincere at all (well maybe Parrikar).

    Of course the Rafale GTG was the way to go otherwise we would still be facing a MMRCA deadlock and talking about workshare/offsets. The UPA turned the MMRCA into an ungodly mess that would never have progressed. Modi did in 18 months (April 2015-late 2016) what the UPA couldn't have done in a decade.

    Maybe I should have been clearer, the deal was given to the Russians for geopolitical reasons (not domestic political reasons)
     
    Bregs, Lion of Rajputana and R!CK like this.
  10. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    8,886
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    Interesting way of looking at it and I'm 100% sure the Indian taxpayer will be fitting the bill one way or another- not only is that part likely to have been priced into the deal from the outset anyway but with HAL being a DPSU any further cost incurred in this aspect will be charged to the taxpayer also.
     
    R!CK likes this.
  11. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Country Flag:
    India
    How do you know this?. French engine commonality and local production will make it cheaper. Double engine and customization makes it more safe and flexible.
    Political decision or not, it is a good enough choice and its way better than redoing the whole process.
     
    LonewolfSandeep likes this.
  12. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    8,886
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    How do I know this, other than the fact it had been officially declared L2? Well it is common sense that a twin engined platform serving in the same role as a single engined platform will require double the maintainence, support and spares. Furthermore, from what I have read the Kamov features many third party systems that will require seperate supply and support contracts with HAL/IAF/IA.
     
    Bregs and R!CK like this.
  13. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Country Flag:
    India
    From my understanding, HAL is already making a new facility for light helicopters and Ka-226 will be made from there. No separate facility. Production will end in 6-7 years since 60 are imported.
     
  14. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Country Flag:
    India
    If you add the infrastructure costs incurred for a production run of 140 units and read about our past MII projects, Indian made Ka-226 will be significantly more expensive than imported ones. Just research on cost variations in Su-30MKI and T-90 projects, you will be surprised. We are paying atleast 20% more for MII Russian products mainly due to absence of 100% ToT. So let us not say MII automatically makes items cheaper, been wrong all this while atleast for Russian products.

    Good Day!
     
    Bregs and Abingdonboy like this.
  15. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    8,886
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    Again, if the IAF/IA had wanted a co-axial rotor system they should have outlined it in their QRs.

    Again, the FENNEC met the MINIMUM criteria the IAF/IA had outlined and was cheaper, I never claimed it was the better product but these were the only two criteria that had to be met under the existing procurement mechanism.
     
    R!CK and Bregs like this.

Share This Page