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Attack Helicopters of IAF - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), AH-64D Apache : Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by flanker143, Mar 16, 2011.

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  1. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Twin engine offered safety.
    More power meant more payload, larger space.
    The rotors could be folded.
    The engines were superior in every way.
    The flight controls were superior.
    The 226 demonstrated precision maneuvering of the highest degree. It could land and operate in places the Fennec couldn't.

    There were quite a few differences which were significant enough not to be ignored. Like the Fennec could carry only 1 stretcher while the 226 could manage 2.

    So the helicopter was better in every way and MII offer was also pretty good, export orders, OEM certification etc.
     
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  2. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    IAF/IA QRs only required a single engine.

    Did IAF/IA ask for this in their QRs?

    In what way?

    Irrelevent because the FENNEC could land in places the IAF/IA needed, nothing more, nothing less- otherwise it would not have been declared L1.

    But did the IA/IAF ask for the ability to transport 2 stretchers? They can't have, 1 would have been sufficent as per their requirements.


    Bro, I can appreciate if this entire conversation may be getting frustrating for you but I am not arguing with your contentions (Ka-226 performance > FENNEC) at all, simply pointing out how we got to this point and how flawed the previous system was not to mention the fact that this entire GTG route/cancelling RSH as lead to yet ANOTHER delay in replacing the ancient Cheetah/Chetak fleet.
     
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  3. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That's not how tendering works. The IAF put up specs which the others have to achieve.

    After that any extra capabilities that other contenders would like to showcase will give them extra points based on utility. Now what Parrikar has done is he's given more weightage to these new capabilities that the IAF had not asked for in the RFP. For example, Rafale's active cancellation tech is extra. So a company that brings in coaxial rotors and demonstrates an advantage would get extra points. This is done because IAF won't be aware of all the new capabilities that are available. So, companies have to showcase and demonstrate these new capabilities because they are the ones with the tech, not the IAF. Again, Rafale's AC is a good example.

    Parrikar said that a decision can be made based on these new capabilities also. If the capability is good, a system can win a tender based on this new capability alone. The Australians did that with the Barracuda. Even though it was more expensive, it had only a few advantages over its competition, which helped the French beat the Germans.

    The disease of L1 is finally gone. We are finally going to make decisions that are logical.

    That means the procurement mechanism was flawed and had to be overhauled.
     
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  4. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Engine restart was faster, maintenance was easier, it could use any fuel without a penalty. There were a few other electronics advantages.

    Everything else, I've answered in the previous post.
     
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  5. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Indeed and this is what worries me as the Tumkur plant that HAL is creating will also be used to churn out the LUH. It has been stated by HAL that the Tumkur plant will be able to churn out 60 LUH/year after "phase 2" (from 2021 onwards) so will the Ka-226 production eat into this capacity and mean the HAL LUH's production rate suffers as a result? I seriously doubt that HAL is going to create extra facilities for the Ka-226's production, can you imagine them churning out 80-90 LUH/year- 60 HAL LUH+20-30 Ka-226? That would be mind blowing.

    It really does seem as though the Russians are piggybacking on public investments (being made by HAL) for the HAL LUH; a shrewd move by them but one that will hurt Indian interests. I can't believe the GoI/MoD is okay with shooting themselves in the foot like this. @R!CK

    If the FENNEC deal had been allowed to continue and not disturbed , Airbus Military were ready to open an entirely NEW production facility with Mahindra.

    This is another aspect of this deal that I am seriously perturbed by @randomradio , the NDA/Modi has turned a deal that would/could have been a "poster child" for "Make in India" that would have created a rival to HAL (at least in the LUH class) but instead they have simply gifted another win to the HAL monopoly. Their rhetoric simply hasn't matched up to their actions.
     
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  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I get that, i was asking about the policy change you mentioned.

    Still Ka-226 is a better product (and higher category). So, you have to consider what you get with the additional price to have a fair comparison.

    And you think RM don't know that? Do you have the fine prints of the contract?
    He actually said the same about MKI it in last interview.
     
  7. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Is this offcial?
     
  8. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant Technical Analyst

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    I'm pretty sure RM is aware about it, but can't say the same about you :p. My reply was against your statement that MII will make these units cheaper. It is a known fact, cost of producing defense equipment in Russia and China is way cheaper than India, Russians make money in after sales services and not in acquisition costs. Even RM has never claimed that MII makes Russian units cheaper, unless I missed something.

    Good Day!
     
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  9. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Cheaper on LCC.
     
  10. R!CK

    R!CK 2nd Lieutant Technical Analyst

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    We need to maintain 2 engines instead of 1, does it make them cheaper? Even Fennec are powered by Turbomeca Arriel 2B turboshaft engines and were slated to be locally manufactured in India. So not exactly sure if the commonalty argument is valid anymore.

    Fennec
    HAL ULH
    Ka-226

    Good Day!
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Old news. L1-T1 and there will be a leverage on the price, at least 10%.

    Yes.
     
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  12. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Are the figures right for the Arriel 2B and Arrius 2G1? Shakti 1U having such a vast performance gap over them seems crazy.
     
  13. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Then why did the A330 MRTT deal get cancelled for the second time bro? If applying the "T1" criteria it would have humiliated the IL-78MKI, even in lifecycle costs it would be cheaper (hence why it was L1 again).
     
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  14. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    This MII is fine.

    The govt plans to get Mi-17 MII also. Then there's two MII programs for the navy. So there may be an addition of two or even three private companies that will make helicopters.

    Reliance wants to bag one of these contracts. Tata is a shoo-in if Sikorsky is chosen for MII.

    I won't be surprised if the IA asks for the Chinook in large numbers.
     
  15. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    From my understanding, price quoted was based on 'civilian converted tankers' which is common for tankers worldwide. Disagreements with finance ministry on this.
    Also, Russia offered new prices based on Il-78 with new PS-90 engines and option of current Il-76 conversion to tanker was also offered.
     

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