Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Beyond FGFA: Can India look at others for Stealth fighter Partnerships?

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by layman, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    194
    Country Flag:
    India
    Ignore the heading ............. Replace Abandon to Delinked. Delinking means the LCA won't be attached with the Kaveri engine, and after few initial squadron of the LCA, will not be powered with Kaveri( till it become reliable). But as we know, that a fighter plane needs engine replacement in its life time in the future, will give GTRE to rectify its shortfalls.

    Second Kaveri is a Project to develop a turbofan engine, GTX-35VS is the prototype of tech. demostrator.

    So Pls clarify these and comment point wise.

    1. On Jan 3 this year, the Safran Group created and advertised for the new position of Director for the Kaveri engine programme. --- What for an Abandon Project. http://safran.profils.org/offre-de-...amme-kaveri-moteurs-militaires-h-f_50805.aspx

    2. DRDO GTRE tender for 75-110KN engine design and development for compressor stage.Design and Development of three stage 5 is to 1 pressure ratio all blisk fan for 75/110 kN thrust class engine http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/viewTender.jsp?paramMicro=11203

    3. Dry Thrust achieved designed rating 51 KN, Wet thrust fall short. Can this engine be used in LCA Twin seater Trainer since wet thrust is not required.

    4. Even if Kaveri would have achieved the required thrust. Does the single unreliable engine (Kaveri) would be powering the unreliable airframe (LCA).

    5. Check this link. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...or-indias-first-ucav/articleshow/49775096.cms. So Rs. 3000 crore for brand new engine from scratch ??

    6. Tender for the manufacturing of 2o engine of 80KN rating, for what ???
    http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/drdojsp...Research Establishment&p=EOI_NOTIFICATION.pdf
     
  2. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    194
    Country Flag:
    India
    Wrong, actually strategic partnership, and taking help from Japan would be best for the AMCA project. First Japan, have every tech. which is needed for the AMCA development, a 5th gen. project, precision Manufacturing capability, turbofan engine tech., AESA Radar tech., Composite Material, Money to be invested in Indian defence sector, Sensors, Optronics, Similar Threat PLA, PLAAF, PLAN. Some of the components and sensors should be taken from the offshelf from the Israeli OEMs and from SAAB for speedy development.
     
  3. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Country Flag:
    United States
    Well your POV is also worth pondering upon, but still stuck with U2 Amphibious planes, and Japanese reluctance to share tech with India, Israel was suggested as better option.

    And already Brits are in collaboration to develop the fighter with Japan, Does India want to join as third wheel ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,022
    Likes Received:
    1,443
    That's not correct, because we de-linked Kaveri from LCA under the former government and decided to buy GE 404 and 414 instead. The development and testing of Kaveri however continued and was stopped by the new government!
    Personally, I would loved to see them continuing, with the aim to test in on Mig 29s and replace Russian engines, rather than keep aiming on LCA or AMCA, but the fact that they stopped it, shows that there was no hope for the current version.


    Because we required Safran/Snecma as part of the Rafale offsets, to join the Kaveri engine development to fix the issues. Without the offsets they wouldn't be any further development, because we rejected earlier offers for a joint Kaveri/Snecma engine. That's why it's called "reviving" of the Kaveri development now.

    Reliability was the main issue and we can't risk LCA craches because we force it to use an unreliable engine, just for the pride of using an Indian engine.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  5. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    194
    Country Flag:
    India
    Change in the views of Japan (Policy of zero weapon export) and Indians (No strategic Parnership with any party) and now Indian projecting as the key player in global international power projection. Second lack of desperation for U2 and role of LM of USA.

    Are you talking about this https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/japan-partners-with-uk-to-study-future-fighter-435612/

    Japan and the UK have agreed to explore options for co-developing a future fighter aircraft, but Tokyo will also continue discussions on developing a next-generation combat jet with other countries, the Japanese Ministry of Defense says.

    Japan’s Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Agency has agreed to exchange information about future fighter technology with the UK Ministry of Defense, as well as a possible co-development, according to a 16 March news release.

    <color=red>The agreement keeps the door open to working with other countries on future projects.</color>



    “Regarding the possibility of international joint development on fighter aircraft in the future, we will continue to exchange views with other countries,” Japan’s MoD says.

    The reason been after EF2000, the Europe don't have the fund to go for the 5th Gen fighter plane. For Stealth USAV UK will partner with france.

    Thanks for responding.

    Sir Ji GE 404 engine was selected to power the TD and PV variants of the LCA, even when Kaveri was in the development phase. And even if the Kaveri was ready, few squardon of the LCA would have been powered by GE 404IN20 because, unreliable/new engine are always used with the reliable Airframe, and Unreliable airframe is always powered by Reliable powerplant.

    And GE 414 is for MK2 variant for carrier operation, which need more thrust to be airborne from the small takeoff length with useful load.

    Just answer one question, the inlet pressure of the Kaveri is higher than the F404, so why didn't ADA haven't changed the inlet design, and do the patch job by opening secondary inlet valve to reduce the airpressure.

    Now the details of the offset between the France with the Rafale is not open, then how are you speculating this.

    Here is something interesting, we are talking about the SAFRON of France, and why would this OEM give away its tech. which it developed investing Billions and decades of experience and with what it make its living. Sir Ji, No OEM will give any tech. but they will give Advice, and their certification to be cleared for the Supersonic Test flight testing in MIG 29 test bed in Russia. And without this certification, Russian won't strap this engine in its test bed. Second they are the one which will give the Air worthiness Certificate, because their is no other Certification Authority in India for issuing/certify it to be cleared for the LCA PV mating.



    According to GTRE Director T. Mohan Rao Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

    Here You are agreeing with my above argument. BTW, reliability/confidence comes with the usage. As far as reliability is concerned

    1. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20,Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
    Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14 achieved

    2. Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

    3. The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

    And for the problem its the access vibration of the 3th order identified during tesing in CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests in Russia, which should have been identified long ago, if such facility would have been in India, and saves precious 3 years and 2 Compressor stages, for which GTRE is seeking technical advice. We still don't have single crystal blade tech., thermal barrier coating, precision manufacturing capability in country, but making this class of flat rated engine is a great achievement.
     
  6. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    3,010
    Country Flag:
    United States
    Currently Japan are already in talks about the development for the fighter with U.K. Whereas India is not even in the picture of consideration.

    Moreover both are already operating F35 it should kill any requirement there of for Japan or U.K. Anyways Japan is hosting a squadron of Raptors.

    So even if India is interested Japanese could not be roped in. Agreement to keep the door open is not for today may be after a decade. Lol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
  7. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    194
    Country Flag:
    India
    I gave the best candidate for the AMCA. If you still insisted, than India could use its huge investment offers such as Railway upgradation, metro, Modern cities and market to make such strategic parnership for higher number of aircraft. What is needed is the will, and the approach, and you will find that UK can't stand there.
    BTW IAF itself is the bigger customer, and you need avionics, optronics, IIR sensors, engine tech. and Precission machines from the Japan.
     
    layman likes this.
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,022
    Likes Received:
    1,443
    No we specifically ordered then for the first 2 MK1 squads and planned with another foreign engine for the MK2 in IAF as well as IN, which was the right mobe but sadly too late. Kaveri however were developed as a side project till it stopped.


    Don't know that, but I don't see a need to change the design of the fighter, just to fix issues with the engine.


    Because we know how the Kaveri / Snecma Co development was suppose to work, but back then we had issues with the ToT supply and the consultancy costs, which now can simply be diverted as offsets. The question however remains what kind of ToT Snecma provides. I'm happy that this deal was fixed but we saw too many issues with the engine development, to say it will be a success for sure. So let's hope for the best and see.


    Yes but it didn't had much so far and you can't test it in LCA, since the risk is too high and we don't need to sent it to Russia, but could integrate it at one of our Mig 29s as well. At least ground tests could be done, or fitted next to am RD33 engine even flight tests. But as I said, in it's current Form it had no future.
     
  9. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,260
    Likes Received:
    4,687
    Country Flag:
    France
    I think they will test it on a Rafale which is bi reactor too.
     
  10. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,022
    Likes Received:
    1,443
    Honesty I hope not, we have far too less Rafales to block one for Kaveri testing, but yes with Snecma involved that could be the case.
     
  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,260
    Likes Received:
    4,687
    Country Flag:
    France
    No it will be on a French Rafale.
     
    Sancho likes this.
  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    11,792
    Likes Received:
    11,193
    Country Flag:
    India
    The original test beds of Rafale may come in handy for testing the new engine.
     
    Sancho likes this.
  13. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,022
    Likes Received:
    1,443
    As long it's not Tejas it's ok, but the aim at the end still must be the replacement of RD33 engines, to make us less independent and improve especially INs Mig 29Ks.
     
  14. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,260
    Likes Received:
    4,687
    Country Flag:
    France
    It was the Rafale A it is retired now!
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
     
    vstol jockey likes this.

Share This Page