Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Bill seeks to reserve seats for Gilgit, PoK residents

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by PARIKRAMA, Apr 17, 2017.

?

Should the Bill seeking to reserve 5 seats for Gilgit and POK be passed in the parliament?

  1. Yes

    91.7%
  2. No

    8.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    819
    Your dates and time-periods are wrong. Look it up again.
     
  2. IndiranChandiran

    IndiranChandiran Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2017
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    795
    Country Flag:
    India
    I absolutely admire our ability to split hair endlessly .That is why I believe we are known as the so called repository of philosophy & metaphysics. May I add sophistry to the above agglomeration as well .

    Why do I say this ? Very simple .Early on , in my carrier in sales , I came across a shrewd & canny Gujarati businessman who left a lasting impression on me with this phrase - "Kanoon dhandhe ke liye banaya gaya , dhandha kanoon ke liye nahin."

    Pakistan had absolutely no qualms about breaking it's stand still agreement with Maharaja Hari Singh of the then independent J&K and went on to calmly gobble upto a third of it and digest it well too.

    No such legal niceties were extended vide Article 370 or other legal gobbledegook when they slivered the so called AJK from the rest of PoK and peopled it with ex servicemen of Mirpuri and Punjabi stock , created a sham government that was headed by a President (practically for life ) Sardar Qayyum Khan and declared it a sovereign state ( all in name , but who cares ) which of course no one in the world recognised , while real power rested in Islamabad or Pindi to be more precise .

    And then there's the Indian side of the story which passed Article 370 which recognised the special rights conferred to the citizens of J&K , did pretty much nothing to better their lives or to amalgamate them into the Union of India like any other state but adopted the policy of benign neglect , played musical chairs between the NC and the various turncoats to the NC's that the NC themselves nurtured & kept the problem festering before it exploded in our faces.

    What's worse , we didn't even eliminate the external threat to us since 1971 in spite of innumerable opportunities having presented itself to us .

    And now we sit here in true pacifistic fashion and looking at the ever limited possibilities , we do what , but indulge in our ever so famous indulgence for which our ancestors gathered renown - hair splitting .

    We wish to be a super power but come up with the lamest of excuses to prevent us from projecting power .We just refuse to spill blood , mostly of our opponents often hiding behind homilies like India never invaded any of its neighbours in all the 5000 ( or less or more depending on where your proclivities lie ) years of our recorded history .

    We still pride ourselves on the myth that we won our freedom from the most powerful empire in history at that point of time in a non violent fashion , not recognizing the fact that we were an exception to the rule .

    It is a continuation of these delusions added with a total disregard to the concept of national security which has brought is to where we are .

    I can't possibly think of any scenario since the invention of N weapons where 3 N weapon powers share the same boundaries with 2 of the 3 sharing the same adversary as well .

    And this has been the case for nearly 4 decades now , with the realisation having seeped in the past 2 decades or so but not internalised enough as to make us fully aware of the gravity of the situation.

    I'd think of further points to add to this rant .
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
    Sam_ likes this.
  3. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    11,024
    Likes Received:
    3,042
    Country Flag:
    United States

    If I may, we are looking at this issue whole, tail to head wrong way.

    Creating this resolution just shows the inability of this govt. to move forward with the said issue on PoK...
    Exploring legality in the said issue which is purely out of requirement to satisfy the public and give a counter narrative to the other side.

    Though Article 370 clearly articulates what India can do and cannot do which can be overturned if we rewrite the constitution with required majority. But the question should not be about Article 370 as what precedes it. It doesn't pave way for complete annexation of PoK, rather it would become a clear mess if legality is taken in consideration. As other members who have much better knowledge than me has articulated clearly the legality that precedes before Article 370 is quagmire which will result with only option of what UN resolution has suggested. Which again bring back to will of native people of the land who would or may wish to have independence completely from both the countries.

    India should explore the possibility that it already had the rights by the Said ruler of that time to provide support for protection of the state in terms of military and law and order...

    To explore such possibility now would require India to clearly take up the issue and give a ultimatum for the other nations to vacate PoK. And i dont think that is going to work well either in today geopolitics.

    So considering these facts and levels of ambiguity in today politics, better to topple inside out rather than toppling outside in.

    I guess members would be kind enough not get enraged by my POV as it open to any interpretations of anyone without crucifying someone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
    Hellfire and IndiranChandiran like this.
  4. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2016
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    828
    Country Flag:
    India
    I think this is in retaliation to Pak annexing Gigit balitistan earlier..

    We were discussing about possible Indian reponse to it..

    The bill have to clear first...though.
     
  5. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,036
    Likes Received:
    4,941
    Country Flag:
    India

    They have not 'annexed' it. Legally it is not yet a part of Pakistan. The interesting twist to the issue is - Afghanistan has claims (as per them) over the region too :D
     
    Sathya and layman like this.
  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,036
    Likes Received:
    4,941
    Country Flag:
    India

    That is precisely the reason why - as the fact that this was quietly signed and ratified in August year before last (?) would have played in opposite direction to the BJP's declared position on Article 370.

    However, realpolitik has it's own imperatives, and that is what has happened in the Naga Case. Mind you, we have the 6th Schedule of the Constitution for the North-Eastern States, equally autonomous :)

    http://indianexpress.com/article/in...d-with-nscnim-pm-narendra-modi-says-historic/

    http://indianexpress.com/article/in...eiterates-demand-for-sovereignty-integration/
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
    Bregs likes this.
  7. Himanshu Pandey

    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2011
    Messages:
    10,209
    Likes Received:
    4,216
    Country Flag:
    India
    as english is not primary lang so the wrong word.

    When the required withdrawal did not occur for several years Jammu & Kashmir National Conference which was the largest political party in the state recommended convening the constituent assembly in a resolution passed on 27 October 1950.[7] On 1 May 1951 Karan Singh then Head of state of Jammu and Kashmir issued a proclamation directing the formation of this assembly. The assembly was to be constituted of elected representatives of the people of the state. For purposes of this election the state was divided into constituencies containing population of 40,000 or as near thereto as possible and each electing one member.[8] The United Nations Security Council stated in its resolution 91 dated 30 March 1951 that it would not consider these elections to be a substitute for a free and impartial plebiscite to the people of Jammu and Kashmir.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_Assembly_of_Jammu_and_Kashmir


    it was not hari singh but karan singh and yes proclamation was issued by Head of state Karan singh but the assembly was elected by the people..

    • Article 3 in part 2 of the J & K constitution reads as, "Relationship of the State with the Union of India:-The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India."
    • Article 5 of the part 2 is about extent of "Executive" and "Legislative" powers of the state which tells that Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly has executive and legislative power of all matters except those with respect to which Parliament of India has power to make laws for the State under the provisions of the Constitution of India.Sectors in which Government of India can make laws for Jammu and Kashmir includes Defense sector, Foreign affairs, Finance and Communication.
    • Article 147 of Part 12 is about amendment of the J & K Constitution which states that, "No Bill shall be introduced or moved in State Legislative Assembly to amend or change above mentioned articles 3 and 5."


    on your second point.. yes that is a dilemma and needed to be rectified... and can be solved by creating a completely new constitutional assembly to create a new constitution with a resolution passed by 2/3rd majority of assembly.. or by time machine or some new way.. but it is not impossible.. a constitutional assembly is not a assembly of gods created to write holy books.. all can be done.. it will be a pain but not impossible.

    on the accession of state and the documents signed.. yes it will not be completed until it is with a plebiscite of people... but then there is a contradiction we need to have whole J & K (including PoK, GB and the territories occupied by china.. you can say that the UN resolution was only about the return of PoK and GB but then china has not occupied a part of J & K and to fulfill the conditions of resolution regarding the plebiscite on accession that part which was under India and before that under the princely state of J & K should also be with India) which we do not have... 2nd thing is there should be a free and fair environment in which this plebiscite will be held... 3rd is that yes UN has said that the election of constitution assembly will not be considered a plebiscite in this regard but the elected members of this body has declared J & K as a integral part of India and stopped people from changing it... this is same as Independence of India as a dominion and declaring India as full republic in Indian constitution.. apart from that all state and parliamentary elections has been considered as a acceptance of Indian J & K to remain with India or we can say a partial plebiscite( you see my english is poor so please suggest the better words for it) and this is why we are openly saying that issue is only with PoK and GB.

    AFAIK there has been no separation of territory of India by any reason apart from conspiracy of gift of coco islands(whicdh is false) and the katchatheevu but then it is part of border settlement or bangladesh border dispute and settlement... apart from these I don't know any and none can be used as an example for J & K.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
    IndiranChandiran and layman like this.
  8. IndiranChandiran

    IndiranChandiran Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2017
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    795
    Country Flag:
    India

    I'm aware of the 6th Schedule .It's been under implementation in the NE since more than 4 decades .The impulses which drove the self determination / independence movement have been by and large neutralised having been accommodated under the Indian Constitution without any such special Articles ala Article 370 barring the Nagas.How the Naga issue pans out is something time will tell us .
     
    The Lockean, layman and Hellfire like this.
  9. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,036
    Likes Received:
    4,941
    Country Flag:
    India
    I just edited my post to include one more news article.

    The Naga issue is also pretty interesting. The first and foremost step which stoked it was the Indo - Burma border settlement. The PM who died of Syphilis unilaterally settled the border thereby 'ceding' traditional Naga Grazing lands upto River Chindwin.

    I am sure you must be aware of this tidbit, but adding it for perspective for everyone else concerned.

    Since the princely states/tribal boundaries were traditionally on their annual movement and grazing patterns, their claims remain as inviolable as Indian claims to Shaksgam Valley.

    The core demand of 'autonomy' has been maintained in the draft agreement.
     
    The Lockean likes this.
  10. IndiranChandiran

    IndiranChandiran Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2017
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    795
    Country Flag:
    India
    No , I didn't know of this interesting tidbit of info.Just as I won't know of the cause of @Joe Shearer demise till someone actually posts it out here .

    Unlike , most members here I don't despise or hate PM Nehru but have a low opinion of his penchant for appeasement and peace at any cost which caused us much grief.

    Let's not forget all the civil and public institutions we have inherited owe a lot to his vision .The less we write about his perspectives on national security the less we assail his memory and legacy .
     
    Sam_ and The Lockean like this.
  11. Nilgiri

    Nilgiri Lieutenant GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    Country Flag:
    India
    Get a couple of those Shia representatives/leaders from over there to come over to India. They are probably being watched like hawks by Pakistan if they are not under detention already...so I defer to RAW how to best implement that if possible.

    There may need to be a creation of special EC division for occupied Indian territory. Use internet (create a tor network with multiple redundancies) and radio (micro-loop ham network) with relevant vetting procedures. Can try it out inhouse in India first in troubled areas to iron out difficulties.

    This should happen with a simultaneous increase in broadcast amplitude of all border radio stations (time to put Indian power surplus to good use ;)) and message/aid balloon launching. Take a few pages out of the South Korean playbook...they officially recognise North Korea as occupied territory after all.
     
    Sam_, The Lockean, PARIKRAMA and 2 others like this.
  12. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    1,350
    Country Flag:
    India
    Something that we failed to do because of some weird reasons or high morality .
     
    The Lockean likes this.
  13. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    1,350
    Country Flag:
    India
    Or targeted strike by using some stealth drones .
    Develop our own stealth drone , keep those development in absolute secrecy and deploy when situation demands .
    And follow a denial approach if other side cries about it.
     
    Hellfire likes this.
  14. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    1,350
    Country Flag:
    India
    According to some Pakistanis ,Punjabis dominates entire political and govt structures in Pakistan.
    Is that right sir?
     
  15. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    201
    Country Flag:
    India
    The bill should be passed as it would show the world that if Pakistan and China can have expansionist behavior, we can have it too and will put a danda in anybody's mouth who speaks bullshit against India, in this case if implemented, Pak DM and Panama shariff would be like, man India toh serious ho gya:cry:
     

Share This Page