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BrahMos News & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Military Doctrine' started by jagjitnatt, Aug 25, 2010.

  1. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Agreed 100%, compound difficulties to shootdown as its also doing S-maneuver. Air defense taking down bhramos at that speed at 3m altitude & accuracy & that high speed S-maveuver (shooting downwards towards sea from ship height)

    Sometimes British have a hard time accepting, when India excels, call it post Colonial Trauma Syndrome. They will debate unnecessary to put it down, as na it doesnt exist or it wont work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  2. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    i know that but does india have the naval s300.

    im not suprised and it wont be 30 seconds hypothetically still 30 seconds is more than enough.

    whats the range of the harpoonblk2 and whats the range of the c802ak?
    i will see and get back to you on that.
     
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    No, 30 seconds is too less.

    It takes 10-15 seconds to acquire a target automatically and react to it. You basically get only 1 chance. And that's only against 1 or 2 Brahmos, not when you have 8 or more screaming towards you from different angles.

    Basically, there is no air defence operational on ships today that can defeat the Brahmos in salvo mode. Even the US can only rely on EW and CIWS if the Brahmos is detected only in the terminal phase.

    Increasing the range to 1000Km also does nothing. It's too slow. The Barak-8 has an extremely high interception probability against such targets.
     
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  4. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The faster your missile is travelling at the point of impact, the greater the kinetic energy it transfers to it's target. Combine that with the explosive warhead and a supersonic/hypersonic missile can inflict far greater amounts of damage on an enemy ship than a subsonic one. That kinetic energy gives off some interesting effects once it hits the target - like breaking up the hull.

    There's a good chance that you can do with 1 hit what you could have been able to do only with 2-3 hits using a subsonic missile.

    Most of these (except the NSM) aren't exactly new. They're just newer iterations of decades-old designs and propulsion concepts (just like BrahMos/Yakhont). Subsonic & supersonic ASCMs are in different categories as far as IN is concerned, and we maintain stocks of subsonic missiles like;

    • 3M54/3M14 Klub-S -- Shivalik-class FFGs, Kilo-class SSKs
    • SM40 Exocet -- Scorpene SSKs
    • AGM/UGM-84L Harpoon Block-II -- P-8I MPAs, Jaguar strike aircraft & U209 SSKs
    • and Kh-35 Uran-E on older surface combatants
    I'd reckon IN knows about the merits & drawbacks of both these types of ASCMs more than most navies in the world. That said, missiles like NSM are designed to be platform-specific...there's no point in building a bigger Ramjet/Scramjet missile if none of your existing or planned tactical platforms (sea, air) are big enough/equipped to carry it.

    I'd also think there is a shift toward faster missiles in many departments...the UK is believed to be pursuing development of a smaller supersonic missile possibly for air-launch naval ops, and then there's the CVS401 Perseus project (or whatever it has or is going to develop into). Then the ASMP-A which is the nuclear delivery option of AdlA.

    US has serious R&D going on wrt Scramjet systems - X51A and all that.
     
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  5. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Exactly...and even if the automated detection, tracking & launch of an interceptor can be done as fast as possible, the job doesn't end there - the SAM needs time to gain speed & altitude, and needs time for it's own seeker to come online and acquire the target.

    Once the attacker bumps up the game to hypersonic - that's even less time. In salvos? Your ship is history.

    Even laser-based DEWs need time to place enough energy on an incoming projectile - especially if the missile in question is a Scramjet body which is designed to be very heat-resistant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
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  6. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    during war time radars like the sampson example, that would pick out the brahmos as soon as its over the horizon, systems such as sea ram or ciws or even sams can be repurposed to engage targets at long range.
    *****************************

    i know all of that but why???????? look at the size of subsonic missiles vs supersonic missiles? its just does not make any logical sense, unless you have some weird desire to sink ships as opposed to disabling them.
    yes the missile are not new but they have new variants
    the harpoon has the blk2 +
    exocet has the blk 3 and same applies to the rbs 15 and the c802.​


    asmp-a is a standoff missile has is not to be used to penetrate strikes bu to be used in areas in enemy territory with little or no population as a last resort as a final serious warning. the uk and france is developing a supersonic missile but the doctrine is different and is at least 8 years away. personally i think they would scrap it as future variant of the aster 30 would be used as supersonic asm's just like the sm2.
     
  7. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The same logic applies. A sea-skimming Brahmos gives you a much shorter window of opportunity to take it out than a sea-skimming Harpoon. At this range radar & IR signature difference doesn't even matter - both missiles can be easily seen & tracked. The question is time.

    It's not about blowing up the ship in a spectacular fashion - it's about ensuring as much damage as possible, given the number of missiles expended. If you launch a salvo of ASCMs (regardless of whether they're subsonic or supersonic), some of them will inevitably be shot down. In such a situation, it matters how much effect each of your missiles can have on the ship.

    A single BrahMos that manages to evade interception can cause a lot more damage than a single Harpoon, increasing your chances of disabling the ship for good even if only one missile manages to get through the defences.

    I foresee the UK/France acquiring a missile with performance characteristics similar to BrahMos-I at around the same time as India acquires the BrahMos-2K.

    I dunno if Aster will be converted to ASM role or not but one thing's for sure - high speed anti-ship missiles are here to stay.

    China & Russia have a whole thing going with their own supersonic ASCMs for both ship & air-launch.
     
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  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    You forget that radars have become so good that both Brahmos and Harpoon are easily detected from the same range now, ie, horizon. So speed is now the determining factor, not stealth.
     
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  9. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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  10. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    As always went through the ship without warhead :bike: pure kinetic destruction.
     
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  11. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    You just needed to look at Chinese bases in the area and the deployment of the BrahMos. I had posted with maps in the other forum the range couple of years back and why BrahMos with 290 kms made no sense in the North East, unless it was a 400 km missile.
     
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  12. Zer0reZ

    Zer0reZ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Weapon of Future: Russian-Indian Hypersonic Cruise Missile Expected in 7 Years

    A Russian-Indian hypersonic cruise missile dubbed BrahMos-II, capable of reaching the speed of Mach 7, will be developed in seven years, a BrahMos Aerospace joint venture executive told Sputnik on Friday. KUBINKA (Moscow Region), (Sputnik) — General manager for market promotion Praveen Pathak said that an intermediate-range BrahMos-II capable of reaching the speed of Mach 4 is expected within four to five years. Scientific research work has begun with the involvement of the Moscow Aviation Institute and an institute in Bangalore, he said. It was earlier reported that the cruise missile would revolutionize arms industry, though its exact configuration has yet to be defined.


    India to Put BrahMos Hypersonic Missile Into Service After Tests in Indian Ocean

    "In the end of September — in the beginning of October, the tests of an aviation modification of BrahMos missile will take place in the Indian Ocean, where it should hit a target in the sea and, later, it will be put into service," Praveen Pathak, the BrahMos Aerospace joint venture executive, told Sputnik on Friday.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  13. Zer0reZ

    Zer0reZ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Indo-Russian Joint Venture Anticipating $14Bln Deal for BrahMos Missiles

    New Delhi (Sputnik) — BrahMos Aerospace, an Indo-Russian joint venture, expects a major jump in the demand for its supersonic cruise missile in the next five years in anticipation of orders from friendly countries of the Asian region. Presently, BrahMos Aerospace is working on the order worth $7 billion placed by the three services of the Indian armed forces.
    "If exports fructify, then the order for BrahMos missiles can almost double in another five years," Sudhir Kumar Mishra, CEO, BrahMos Aerospace said at a function organized by the Confederation of Indian Industries in New Delhi.
    BrahMos Aerospace signed contracts worth $554 million from April 2015 to August 2017. Transactions worth $615 million for the financial year 2017-18 and 2018-19 were approved considering new orders from customers and future developmental orders. The company approved the proposal in a meeting held in the last week of September.
    Vietnam has been on top of the list of India’s potential clients form the BrahMos missiles. But various hurdles have kept a deal from materializing. In August this year, there were speculations in the media that India had delivered BrahMos missiles to Vietnam.
    “The arms purchase is in line with Vietnam’s peaceful national defense policies aimed at protecting the country,” Le Thi Thu Hang, Vietnamese foreign ministry spokeswoman had said in August this year during a regular press briefing in a reply to a question which reads, “It has been in the international news that Vietnam just received some Brahmos missiles from India. Could you please confirm that information?” India, however, denied having delivered the BrahMos missiles to Vietnam.
    BrahMos Aerospace is a joint venture between India’s state-owned defense research unit DRDO and Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyenia which was established in 1998.
     
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  14. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Given the many merits of cruise missiles, the test-firing of BrahMos-A must adhere to the time line announced as it will open up avenues for India to acquire state-of-the-art technologies

    The supersonic BrahMos cruise missile air launch version (BrahMos-A) will be test-firing by the end of this year. This was disclosed by the Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa at the customary media interaction on October 5 to mark the Air Force Day.

    With this test being successful, the air launch version would enter the Air Force, completing the trio of the anti-ship version with the Navy and the land-attack version with the Army. It is important that this test, preparations for which have been made since 2012, be held on time as it would initiate induction of technologies critical for cruise missiles, which would be the game-changers for deterrence and war-fighting.

    A single BrahMos-A fired from the Su-30MKI aircraft will witness a 300 kg warhead going at speed of 2.8 Mach, hitting a Naval target (an abandoned ship) at 400 km range with pin-point accuracy (zero Circular Error Probability, or CEP) with the radars of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) recording the entire event.

    It could be argued that what is the big deal if the Su-30MKI flying close to Mach 2 speed with a range of 3000km and payload carrying capacity of 8,000kg (eight tonne) is used to throw a single BrahMos-A missile onto the sea-target?

    The big deal would be that with zero accuracy error, BrahMos-A would provide excellent stand-off maritime strike capability and lethality when launched from air close to Andaman and Nicobar Islands (where India has the Andaman and Nicobar Command) to cover the Strait of Malacca, the key choke point that connects the Western Pacific with the Indian Ocean. India, thus, would have acquired the capability to both seek (through its P-8I aircraft) and kill hostile vessels entering what it considers its backyard where the Indian Navy is the net security provider.

    Moreover, this would be just the beginning. The next step would be simultaneous work on three fronts: Equipping 40 Su-30MKI with this capability; miniaturisation of BrahMos-A to BrahMos-NG (Next Generation), work on which has begun with Russia and is expected to be accomplished by 2021; and indigenisation of two key technologies — propulsion and seeker — which will have a wider application in the sub-sonic Nirbhay cruise missile, which being built by the DRDO, is at present, not much of a success.
    The radar, seeker and propulsion technologies of BrahMos-A come from Russia.

    It uses a mono-pulse X-band Imaging Synthetic Aperture Radar which is better than the Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) radar used in cruise missiles the world over. All cruise missiles flying at sub-sonic (less than sound) speeds are designed to be terrain-hugging since they are required to evade enemy radars by flying low over large distances. Given this, they have TERCOM, which continuously maps the terrain and matches it with its own stored data to reach the target.

    Since BrahMos is the only cruise missile with super-sonic (more than sound) speed, it travels at about 16km above sea-level. It uses this special radar which gets its updates from the GPS/Russian Global Navigation Satellite System or GLONASS and flies across many way-points (where the flight changes its path instead of the traditional trajectory which can be monitored) to evade enemy radars. Because of this peculiarity, and the super-sonic speed, BrahMos is impossible to be intercepted.

    The BrahMos seeker — seeker SGH — is made by the Russian company, Granite Joint Stock Company. It has the capability for accurate terminal guidance, where the seeker takes over from the GPS supported radar to hit the target. The DRDO is developing an indigenous seeker, which involves numerous domestic companies, especially Data Pattern and ECIL.

    Once done, the seeker will be an Indian IPR design which can freely be used in other applications. It is for this reason that the DRDO did not take up the European MBDA company’s offer for transfer of seeker technology as part of the, now abandoned, joint-development and production Maitri short-range surface to air missile program.

    The BrahMos propulsion involves two-stage motor, of which the booster is the first stage and the ramjet engine (much better than turbojet technology) being the other one. In order to reduce the weight of the BrahMos-A by 500kg as compared with the Navy and Army version of BrahMos, the booster size has been reduced with the ramjet engine remaining the same weight. This has been done since BrahMos-A fired from the Su-30MKI will already be at an altitude that does not require much boost to enter the cruise phase powered by the ramjet engine.

    The challenge, however, will be in the miniaturisation of BrahMos-A so that three missiles — BrahMos NG — instead of the present single missile on the Su-30MKI can be loaded. This will require a new ramjet engine, work on which is underway with Russia. In terms of war-fighting, Su-30MKI armed with three BrahMos-NG will enhance the Air Force’s mission options.

    This is not all. Once India gets its propulsion and especially the seeker, it will be a big boost to the other DRDO programme — the sub-sonic Nirbhay cruise missile. This missile has had four tests, out of which three were unsuccessful and the results of the fourth were not disclosed. The Nirbhay is claimed to have 1,000 km range with a turbofan engine.

    Turbofan engines consume much less fuel than turbojets of equivalent size; hence are more complex system and extremely expensive. Accordingly, turbofan engines are considered suitable for long-range cruise missiles with ranges between 600 km to 2,000 km. At present, only a few countries have mastered the turbofan propulsion technology. Interestingly, China is amongst them and Pakistan’s Babur cruise missile uses Chinese technology.

    In fact, the Nirbhay program was started to meet the challenge from the sub-sonic Babur missile. A few turbo-fan engines were procured from Russia. However, when the DRDO openly boasted about Nirbhay having capability to carry nuclear warheads, Russia stopped supply of engine. This came as a blessing in disguise as the DRDO was compelled to work on an indigenous engine with Russian help. According to sources, this project is moving satisfactorily and once India develops its own seeker there will be a commonality of seeker between three missiles - BrahMos, Nirbhay and even the Russian 3M14 Club with the Indian Navy.

    To place in the global perspective, cruise missiles are the weapon of choice rather than the ballistic missiles because they are less expensive; are easier to design, develop, procure, maintain and operate; have wider applications in conventional warfare, including in unmanned aerial vehicles; and have fewer technology restriction, especially so since India is a member of the Missile Technology Control Regime since 2016. Given all this, the test-firing of BrahMos-A should not be delayed since it opens up avenues for India to acquire state-of-the-art technologies.

    http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/oped/sky-is-the-limit-for-cruise-missile.html
     
  15. Som Thomas

    Som Thomas 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    India to conduct first test of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from Sukhoi on Wednesday
    By Hemant Kumar Rout | Express News Service | Published: 22nd November 2017 12:06 AM |

    Last Updated: 22nd November 2017 08:55 AM | A+A A- |

    [​IMG]
    Initially, though it was planned in 2015, the test was deferred due to delay in integration with the aircraft. | Express Photo Service

    BHUBANESWAR: Finally the D-Day arrived. The aircraft is ready and so also the missile. India is all set to conduct the first trial of supersonic cruise missile BrahMos from Sukhoi-30 MKI on Wednesday.

    Defence sources said the aircraft will take off from an air force base in West Bengal and fire the missile against a target over the Bay of Bengal. Preparation has been completed for the maiden trial.

    Initially, though it was planned in 2015, the test was deferred due to delay in integration with the aircraft.

    "The launch window is 10 am to 12 noon. Two aircraft have been kept ready. While one has been integrated with the missile another will track all along its flight - from fire to hit. We all are excited for the mission," said a defence official from New Delhi.

    Jointly developed by India and Russia, the air force version of 8.4-meter BrahMos missile, fastest in the world, has a strike range of 290 km and carries a conventional warhead up to 300 kg. With high-precision, it has devastating power at a supersonic speed of Mach 2.8.

    Defence sources said the BrahMos Aerospace had to reduce the weight of the missile as it is to be launched from a moving platform unlike its army and navy versions. Some modifications have also been made in its design to easily integrate it in Sukhoi aircraft.

    Though the air-version of the missile is yet to be tested, several countries had evinced interest in the weapon system during the recently concluded Dubai air show. Earlier, it had demonstrated successful integration with the aircraft.

    If test fired successfully, BrahMos will be first weapon system in the world to have such capability. As of now, there is no such weapon available which can be fired from land, sea and air platforms.
    http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...missile-from-sukhoi-on-wednesday-1707366.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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