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Brexit the chance for a united EU military?

Discussion in 'Europe & Russia' started by Sancho, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Fox

    Fox Supreme Overlord FULL MEMBER

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    Which is, to be frank, the complete opposite of the direction I'd prefer Norway to take. Greater cooperation with the Nordic Council, less with everyone else in Europe (note I'm leaving the UK and Russia from a political standpoint, though they are European countries).

    A Nordic Military to compliment the Nordic Council which includes the major players of Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Norway, but also Iceland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and sees associate states of Aland, the Faroe Islands, Greenland and interestingly the German federal state of Schleswig-Holstein as members. A combined Nordic Military force, looking out for Nordic interests. That might not be what crops up, but I've always been more of a Scandinavianist/Pan-Arctivist then someone who favors increased ties with Mainland Europe.

    Given the Nordic Battlegroup already includes the nations included in the Nordic Council (minus Iceland who lacks a standing military), I'd like to see it expand, not in membership terms, but in capability - manpower, equipment, exercises, even R&D. Right now it's a pitiful force because each nation's commitments lies elsewhere (specifically Denmark and Norway with NATO), but either as a parallel to NATO or as a Northern European initiative to reduce reliance on the US, I'd like to see it become our defence bloc. Yes, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are part of the NBG.

    [​IMG]

    The Nordic nations have capable defence industries as well, building aircraft, submarines, ships, just about anything you'd like. Once again, I'd prefer to see cooperation within the Nordic Realm, though I'm also open to invite the likes of the UK or US to join.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
    Sancho likes this.
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    The nordic cooperation in terms of naval forces might be enough to tackle a Russian threat, but to counter air and ground forces, or even better to provide a proper threat potential to Russia, it needs a larger EU force. That's where the Mediterranean nations, will be important too, if the EU wants to stand strong.
    What interests me the most, is the possible new industrial links, between Saab and Airbus for example, Volvo, MTU and Snecma as well as future armored vehicles, that could be build together. The prospect looks very interesting, but the Scandinavian countries needs to join Germany, France and Italy to provide a strong Base.
     
  3. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    But will they aim for a more single state approach to defence, with a rationalisation of the number of defence contractors through a series of acquisitions? Maybe some national defence contractors just won't be around in 30 years.
     
  4. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Ha! They are southlings, warm-lovers and weaklings.
    True northlings and vikings are Russians. Join to us, we are stronger.
    [​IMG]


     
  5. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    ^A vodka-a-day helps you work rest and play.
     
  6. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    http://www.airforce-technology.com/...pean-tactical-airlift-centre-in-spain-5842873
     
  7. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Oh Single state is such a HUGE problem with the principle of sovereignty. I prefer the UK solution- be a very very very small country, don't ally with ANYONE, fight with EVERYONE. A lot of big talking about special sauce will make up for military strength. And when people talk about Russia, China and India- more hot air about how 'qualitywise' your forces are better with not one piece of evidence to support it can be bandied around. UK is a bad influence on Europe.
     
  8. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I think you'll find we are allied with NATO and most of Europe and many pacific countries, we just like the idea of being our own country and governing ourselves. Our defence is focused on our needs and we're in the fortunate position of having our enemies a long way away from us. Quality is a factor, not just in terms of training but actual equipment. In 5 years time I would bet money on 160 AESA Typhoons and soon 140 F-35s equipped with Meteor beating 1000 MiG-21s/MiG-27s/MiG-29/Flankers/Rafales. Some nation's fighter aircraft are best described as litter by modern standards. Furthermore a Challenger II will go through divisions of T-72/80/90s like Swiss cheese. They're only APCs by Challenger II standards. Not one single Challenger I or II was destroyed by enemy fire in Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom, it's was the only allied tank type not to be too. Whilst Britain is a long way from a superpower, there are a lot of larger militaries out there with mostly duff equipment and idiots operating them.

    My experience with Euro-collaboration projects is that they are terrible. They increase the price of the product due to inefficient work-sharing, reduce the quality of the product, again due to work-sharing (the fuselage with the landing gear that opens into the inside pylon store was not designed by the UK) and lead to a reliance on nations with very little interest in post-ISD development. The amount of money being put towards this venture is about 1/10th of annual UK military spending in total and due to how the EU is ran, it will mostly go to German and French companies, with other national defence industries left out in the cold. However, due to our 37.5% share in MBDA we'll get a 3/8ths share of the profits anyway.
     
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    http://www.defensenews.com/articles...al-benefits-says-former-french-military-chief
     
  10. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    As I said once in the Rafale thread, there is a prospect for...

    ...joint strategic air transport
    ...joint AWACS
    ...joint tanker
    ...joint MALE drone
    ...joint UCAV (unmanned FCAS)
    ...joint Eurocanards replacement (manned FCAS)
    ...joint MBT
     
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...mmanuel-macron-angela-merkel-juncker-military


    Now it gets interesting! Who will join and back the central European push?
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    I hoped for Airbus to push for Saab, but it seems that Saab is getting bolder these days and knows about the important role, they might have in EU's future!

    (Translated)
    https://translate.googleusercontent...ieren/&usg=ALkJrhjuvgmJfk4hQy_Q61KSOGdGeli9Xw

    This is a big deal!!! If Airbus (Germany and Spain) teams up with Saab and Sweden, it puts Airbus France and the French government under pressure to join as well, or to be left behind. Either get Dassault in line to join a common EU FCAS program, or support Airbus France!
    Saab and Sweden now could make important moves to leaders in the EU on political, defence and aviation matters.
     
  13. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Well, i talked recently (10 days ago) with Sweden chief of staff and high ranked executives of SAAB. And they told me not so interested in FCAS as we have Gripen E to manage already....
     
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  14. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    That they are not interested in developing an own one, or that they are not interested in joining an FCAS project.
    Also Gripen E doesn't really play a role here, since we are talking about a time frame, when the early Gripen A to D would require replacements and since Swedish Air Force so far has only ordered 60 E's in exchange for older once, there would still be at least 40 fighters to be replaced in a decade or so. If we take the original order of Gripens, there would be even more. Either way, the more countries would join, the higher the requirement.

    Saab also has pretty similar views on FCAS as Airbus has, which are not necessarily focused on a Neuron like drone, but a fighter design, that could be converted to an unmanned version.
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

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    And the next step...

    http://airrecognition.com/index.php...30-mrtts-to-future-european-tanker-fleet.html
     

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