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Britain should accept more immigrants if it wants a free trade deal - Senior Indian diplomat

Discussion in 'Europe & Russia' started by somedude, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    who the hell are you to decide that?
     
  2. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    So India is still crying about British colonization, why does it want Britain to open itself up for colonization (even more than it already has)?

    EDIT:
    Whenever a country enters EU, the only country that gains anything from it is Germany. That has been known for long time, but political elite don't care.
     
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    When India says Mode 4, India is offering only highly skilled professionals.

    That's the cost of FTA with India. You want FTA, access to a market with 1.3-1.6 billion people, you will have to make concessions.

    Anyway, you have vacancies, that's why it's been proposed. Even the US has a lot of vacancies. A million in the UK, 6 million in the US. If you are an employer you will only be thinking of filling up open positions or outsourcing them. India is offering to help keep the job in the host country instead of having it outsourced. It's obviously a win-win.

    The main earnings will be corporate profits, not taxes from measly salaries.

    These guys are professionals. They come in, finish high end tasks which generate profits and then they leave. It's obvious that you shouldn't be able to touch their salaries.

    If you want to tax them, then guarantee them 5-10 year job visas, that's fine. That's up to your govt. But if you expect them to stay only for a few months to a few years, it's obvious you can't touch their salaries. That goes against international taxation laws. India and UK are signatories to the double taxation avoidance treaty. Nevertheless, this is not what Mode 4 is about.

    Sure. All temporary jobs come with perks. You really think a guy's gonna rent out an apartment for a 6 month stay? Accommodation, food, transport etc are all normal perks. Companies even give shopping and holiday allowances.

    Not through Mode 4. If the company wants to employ the person, then he must return to India and reapply for the job and a new visa like a regular immigrant. Through Mode 4, you can't get permanent residency and obviously not citizenship. So it's a pretty complex process.

    'Cause they create value.

    If the NHS has a backlog of surgeries, which are critical to patients's survival, surgeons can come in from India and do the needful and at vastly lower costs very quickly. This saves the NHS money and saves patients's lives.

    Who cares about taxes when services have been rendered.

    Then the Indian professional will earn a salary and the company he is working for will earn corporate profits.

    Basically
    Mode 4 - Indians keep the salaries, UK keeps corporate profits.
    No Mode 4 - Indians keep the salaries and the profits since work has been outsourced.
     
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  4. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Well then they £35k minimum shouldn't be a problem. We don't need it that bad. Our GDP/Capita is $43k, yours is $2k, guess which on of us needs it the most.


    Labour taxes amount to 4 times corporation taxes in the UK and NI is vital to the running of the NHS. The problem is that they would be displacing other workers who would be paying these labour taxes, yet the NHS and other public services would still have to support these other workers. Double taxation avoidance is more like mere tax avoidance these days. Many people travel from A to B and never pay any tax. But if the people are displacing workers, then they should pay the tax that those workers would have been paying.

    Which they will get if the pay is over £35k.

    They're only creating value if there's absolutely nobody else here that can do that work, otherwise it's better to give the jobs to locals. And there's no way of existing here without putting some strain on public services. E.g. road use, public transport use (rail network), garbage collection, police. So they would have to pay some taxes for the services they are using.

    I'd be more inclined to fix the NHS properly rather than applying such patchwork.

    Yes, but he can program from India and e-mail it, that way it doesn't put any burden on UK public services.
     
  5. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    It's the law as it stands. Below £35k is not skilled.
     
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The need is irrelevant.

    And you definitely need it bad.

    Mode 4 doesn't displace workers. Temporary workers can never displace permanent workers.

    Like I said, they won't. Mode 4 won't allow permanent residency.

    If these guys were looking for permanent jobs, then they wouldn't opt for Mode 4 anyway, they will enter the British market directly.

    There is absolutely nobody else. Look up job vacancies in the UK, it's glaring.

    You can't fix it, you don't have people. There is no secret wizarding world in little London.

    This isn't about programming. This is about managing teams, running projects, performing consultations, which are all onsite jobs. No consultant can consult on a British project while sitting in India. In fact, the client expects onsite relocation.

    You want FTA with India, you will have to allow Mode 4. Mode 4 will be implemented through WTO in the near future anyway.
     
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  7. Darth Marr

    Darth Marr Captain FULL MEMBER

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/28/nhs-hire-5000-nurses-india-phillipines/

    The NHS is to hire 5,500 nurses from India and the Philippines in a desperate bid to plug staff shortages, health officials have said.

    The mass recruitment exercise follows an increase in the number of UK graduates abandoning the profession, and a sharp drop in the number of nurses coming to work in Britain from the EU.

    It comes as the Health Secretary sparked fury by signalling that reforms to NHS pay for nurses and midwives could be modelled along the lines of controversial changes to contracts for junior doctors.

    Jeremy Hunt said a “more professional pay structure” was required for more than 1 million workers, who can currently get rates of up to 60 per cent more pay for weekend shifts.

    Mr Hunt said the government was not aiming to reduce the pay bill and would continue to pay a higher rate for weekend work. But he suggested the contract introduced for junior doctors after a bitter dispute could be a model for a new deal pay for other workers, describing it as “quite a sensible one”.

    Officials from Health Education England yesterday revealed plans to hire 5,500 nurses from India and the Philippines, with 500 nurses due to be recruited from overseas by March.

    Prof Ian Cumming, chief executive of the body, said the plans were “ethically based” as nurses from overseas would receive training in the UK, and given placements on the basis that they would return to their home countries with new skills.

    Patients groups last night expressed concern about the plans, describing them as “desperate measures” and said longer term action was needed to boost numbers trained in the UK.

    The NHS has already embarked on efforts to find 5,000 GPs from overseas in an attempt to address growing shortages of family doctors.

    Mr Cumming told the Commons health select committee: “We are currently aiming to bring somewhere in the region of 5,500 nurses into the country internationally on an ethically based ‘earn, learn and return’ programme.”

    The first pilot of nurses has now arrived from India, with a total of 500 staff due by March, he said, with plans to establish a similar initiative with the Philippines, he said.

    Prof Cumming said the fixed-term placements would help the NHS to cope with its lack of nurses, while helping overseas countries in the long-term.

    He told MPs: “We believe that doing it that way is more ethically robust. We aren’t denuding a country of their valued resource but we are allowing people to come here for a fixed period of time. Yes to help us with a staffing shortage that we have got, but also to learn to earn money and to take that back into their country.”

    Joyce Robins, from Patient Concern, said: “We do need more staff but I have grave doubts about whether this is the way to go about it.

    “These kind of exercises are a desperate short-term measure, which can result in language difficulties, and nurses having to get familiar with new systems, when we should be making longer-term plans, and training up enough nurses in this country,” she said.

    In an interview with Health Service Journal, Mr Hunt said the priority was to reform a system of “increments” which mean pay is linked to time served, rather than performance.

    But he suggested that the controversial deal introduced for junior doctors - which sparked rows over weekend rates - was “quite a sensible one”.

    Last night the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) and the Royal College of Midwives (RCM) reacted with fury.

    Jon Skewes, from the RCM said NHS staff should not be expected to “fund their own pay increase”.

    “Last week’s Budget was helpful on funding, but the Secretary of State, by citing the junior doctor’s dispute, has blundered,” he said.

    “We think the pay structure could be improved but we will not be prepared to reduce the fair compensation that midwives and other staff in the NHS receive for providing a service that is there every day, every night, every weekend, every bank holiday, every Christmas holiday.”

    A spokesman for the RCN said: “Jeremy Hunt is in danger of repeating the junior doctors row if he deploys the same tactics.

    “The RCN will not accept the Government’s productivity argument as a condition of a pay rise and we will not support any reduction in terms and conditions.”
     
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  8. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Basically , the Brits think it's 18th century redux . Time to draw up an unequal treaty and hood wink the natives again. Alas ! Things aren't that simple.
     
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  9. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Thats not what your health minister said last time when she came to India, she gave the impression that UK had less specialists so she was welcoming specialists and consultant specialists to work there in NHS. I know there is no vacancy for locum jobs in UK at MBBS level, but at specialist and consultant level there are no one from UK to fill up those posts,so UK allows German Doctors to work on weekend as a Consultant . If the Medical graduates in UK were good enough,they would get a Training position after they clear the respective tests etc.
    You give off a impression NHS is deliberately keeping down local homegrown UK graduates by denying them training positions,which is not the case. Let me put it bluntly, there are no one interested in studying hard to become a Doctor ,Engineer,Scientist,researcher etc. in UK, you are used to freebies and Socialist schemes from your government paying to feed the population,why then would anyone go out of their way to study,when you get food,clothing,housing free, most young people in UK would prefer not to work or study and spend all their day in pubs in such scenario. The best you would get are students willing to join Arts and humanities streams,which we all know doesn't contribute anything towards innovation nor GDP or create jobs for others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  10. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Why? Compare the average standard of life in the UK compared to India.


    There are temporary local workers too. They should only look outside if nobody internal can be found after 6 months of trying as a minimum.


    They're too fussy. I have witnessed multiple examples directly and indirectly.

    Sure you can. If there are students with sufficient qualifications to get on medicine degrees that are being rejected and graduate doctors being rejected, then there is plenty of opportunity for internal fixes. Employers lie through their teeth about not being able to get the staff. We live in a nation of lying employers, who always complain we need more labour because a bulging labour market reduces the cost of labour. These are the sort of people who voted to remain in the EU - liars.

    We have an abundance of project managers.

    We don't want it that badly. Our average living standards are fine. EU would veto it. US would veto it. It will never get implemented via the WTO without such approval. The EU in particular would veto it because it would allow a workaround for UK financial services.
     
  11. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Health minister is a liar. We've shown links to the latter even in this thread. We have less specialists because they're removing the ladder for UK-based people trying to become specialists. It's a self-made problem.

    They are good enough, some have the highest possible grades.

    It is the fucking case, I have a cousin who is an example of it. They are liars.

    Don't make me laugh. I got a first in engineering and was rejected by about a dozen companies before I finally got a position. There's often 3 assessment centres for some companies. They're hilariously fussy, yet the same bastards have the audacity to claim there's a shortage of labour when it comes to leaving the EU. Just like the people who got fined for paying less than minimum wage, you can be sure they voted remain too. Employers are no different to the BBC when it comes to telling the truth.
     
  12. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I think an FTA would actually give India a horrible advantage on exports. I.e. what's the cost of labour and production in India compared to the UK? I don't see how India wouldn't benefit massively from that even without Mode 4.
     
  13. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I once had a childhood friend who was a college drop out and had applied to Google. Next thing I know is he was roundly abusing then for not considering him .You see , prospective employees everywhere have a heightened sense of self esteem and consequently employability . They sometimes mistake academic excellence for competence . My friend however believed that the school of hard knocks entitled him to a position that people with twice or thrice his academic abilities would think twice about before considering applying for such a position .That he was half Irish didn't help matters .
     
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  14. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Captain FULL MEMBER

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    If you had specialists then you wouldn't need German or Belgian doctors from EU to performing surgeries in UK and going back to their countries on Monday. You lack Specialists that is why NHS has invited Specialists from EU and other non -EU nations to fill the gap. What NHS is doing is just short term Band-Aid treatment to plug the deficiency of homegrown specialists,because there are not many in UK studying or qualifed to be at a consultant or Specialist level its not some conspiracy to suppress homegrown talent while promoting foreign specialists by NHS.
    If you get rejected ,then there must be a cause for it,either you didn't make the cut or you lack skillset for the job. In any country, if you pass your exams properly you make the cutoff list.No country would suppress its own talent, just saying.
     
  15. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Simple .The market for light and medium engineering goods is cornered by the Chinese .Which is why in spite of his best efforts , PM Modi hasn't been too successful in getting Foreign investors to shift manufacturing units out here and boost employment and consequently exports . Till the Chinese fail badly , services is our life line. Hence Mode 4 by our negotiators .
     
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