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British warships 'so noisy' Russian submarines can hear them 100 miles away, investigation finds

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by GSLV Mk III, Feb 8, 2017.

  1. GSLV Mk III

    GSLV Mk III Captain FULL MEMBER

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  2. GSLV Mk III

    GSLV Mk III Captain FULL MEMBER

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  3. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    100 Miles Away....
    That's must be a damn good Sonar...Or One hell of a noisy Ship...
    :lol: :lol:

    How exactly did that ship clear trials in the first place then....!?

    Anyway...

    Why exactly is the UK 'Under spending' on defence....!? Where is the money going then...Other Scheme's !?.... Economic Policies !?.... Infrastructure !?

    Personally....I don't think anyone has the balls to touch a full member NATO country.... Especially the UK....The Big Daddy US has to come to aid Contractually...(For lack of a better word )
     
  4. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  5. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    People underestimate how efficiently sound travels under water.

    https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/far-can-whale-hear-underwater-27743619e5482075

    Now that's natural sonar, against advanced military sonar and with a 9,000 ton, 54,000hp destroyer, 100 miles is actually a relatively short range.
     
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  6. GSLV Mk III

    GSLV Mk III Captain FULL MEMBER

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    That's what I was talking about & has caused much concern.
     
  7. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Similar documentary to these.



     
  8. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    It'll get fixed, no big deal. Only relevant in the Middle East, where the enemy is pretty useless anyway.
     
  9. GSLV Mk III

    GSLV Mk III Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Will require a major refit
     
  10. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    But it's not a big deal since it doesn't affect operations in theatres against peer adversaries. But yes, it's silly and shouldn't have happened.
     
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  11. SvenSvensonov

    SvenSvensonov MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The Type 45 destroyers are air-defense assets and have been optimized for that role. While they possess a Surface Ship Torpedo Defense system and decoys they were NOT optimized or designed for ASW, as noted with their armament. Typically these boats are not fitted with torpedo tubes or ASROCs, their only ASW assets are either AW159 Wildcats or AW101 Merlin, both very capable ASW helicopters.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Because they were not designed with ASW in mind, their hulls where not optimized for the signature reduction needed to perform high-fidelity ASW. They have non-magnetic hulls and some acoustic signature reduction considerations, but not what you're expect to see on a dedicated ASW platform like the Nansen Class Frigates.

    [​IMG]

    In a battle formation the Type 45 would provide a screen for capital assets like the QE Class Carriers, situated several dozen miles/kilometers away to provide long-range air-defense for said capital assets. An ASW ship would be outside of the main battle formation ring, dodging, weaving, zig-zagging to maximize the effectives of their towed array and complicate an torpedo interception. Because they are actively hunting submarines and will likely be the first contact with hostile boats they have hulls designed to lessen the effectiveness of a submarine's sensors and weapons. Non-magnetic steel construction, quieted machinery and a few others methods and techniques a crew or boat can implement. ASW ships and air-defense ships are optimized differently because their roles require different considerations. It's no surprise that the Type 45 is noticeable for submarines, since it wasn't designed to hunt them. They carry stand-off assets (ASW heloes), but the hulls were not designed with sub hunting in mind.

    The Arleigh Burke class was designed as a true multi-mission ship and has incorporated methods to lessen their noticability when projecting ASW capabilities.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Bluntly, to rely on the ASW capabilities of a destroyer to defeat a submarine is asking for trouble. A helicopter on the other hand can search for submarines rapidly at a long range from the ship, rather than waiting for them to get within ASROC/Torpedo range, which basically means you're dead.

    E.g. if you take the Mk54 MAKO in that picture, before a submarine gets within range of that, the ship would already be within range of a Mk48 or Spearfish torpedo, which basically means the ship is equipped with a weapon that it can only fire after it's dead.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  13. SvenSvensonov

    SvenSvensonov MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Not really. The tube launched MK54 was designed to operate in littoral waters where larger heavy-weight torpedoes perform less then adequately. For extended range engagements the MK54 VL ASW Rocket is used, also known as RUM-139C VL-ASROC.

    [​IMG]

    RUM-139A had a range of 22km, RUM-139B 28mk and RUM-139C pushed the range over 35km. Coupled with the +10km range of the older MK46 on RUM-139A/B and +20km range of the MK54 used on the RUM-139C and submarines within the attack range of Spearfish, DM2A4/5 or ADCAP are also within range of VL-ASROC.

    Same with the K-ASROC (Hong Sane Eo) with a range of 20km and its Chung Sang Eo torpedo, also with a 20km range.

    [​IMG]

    The tube launched MK54 was designed to be used in littoral waters or to engage submarine within their optimal firing distance. While 40km may be the max of an ADCAP it's hardly ideal. Submarines will often close within several kilometers to limit the effectiveness and response time of countermeasures and heighten the probability of a kill.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And that puts them not only within range of VL-ASROC or a comparable design, but within range of light weight torpedoes like MK54.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
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  14. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The Spearfish torpedo works fine in littoral waters, ity was designed for all environments. Range 54+km. Why would a heavyweight torpedo not work in littoral waters, smaller than firing submarine surely?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearfish_torpedo
    http://www.baesystems.com/en/product/spearfish-heavyweight-torpedo
    http://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/20151124114138/1434555560842. PeeDeef- You'll have to fix and paste that link.


    And in any case, if you needed to be that close to fire a torpedo effecively, then the same would apply to the ones the ship is firing. But fact is that the Spearfish was even designed to be fired down the mouth of rivers at ships.

    The submarine is much stealthier than a ship and can't be seen by satellites. So the only way to defend against them is MPAs and ASW helicopters plus your own submarines. This is why deck space on the Type 45 isn't wasted on ineffective weapons. What you need if a submarine actually manages to get that close is anti-torpedo countermeasures, which the Type 45 has in spades.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017

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