Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

China’s J-10B fighter to Pak worries India

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by kamle, Aug 5, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    5,744
    Likes Received:
    2,114
    It's air launched but it's A2G.

    read my old post on this..... there's a lot to be taken in before branding it AWACS killer.

    no doubt on this one.... AMRAAM and Meteor, but I reckon SD-10B is very much comparable to western AAMs

    R-77 is good sure....
     
  2. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,109
    Likes Received:
    908

    S'all good, mate, all I'm saying is this stuff isn't worth getting worked up over.


    Now this here is debatable.

    India is likely to protest the possible export of AL-31s to Pakistan even more ferociously than the RD-93 sales. Considering the deeper Russo-Indian ties with all the joint projects and the fact that an engines of the same lineage are in use in India's most advanced fighter, India wouldn't take this as lightly as they did the RD-93 scenario. Nor would Sukhoi, considering that the J-10 is a Flanker competitor on the international market; those guys have some serious pull in Russia.




    Guess there's nothing else to it...
     
  3. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    5,744
    Likes Received:
    2,114
    TVC sure.... but that's good for WVR combat....
    At red flag one on one against USAF aggressor planes thinking they would use their TVC in WVR engagements. SU30MKI employs their TVC and this is exactly what gets them killed. The plane gets into post stall maneuver, looses kinetic energy while forgetting that F15/F16's have excellent turn rates.

    If you are talking of Cobra, then Cobra is very useless in real combat.
    No-one said that J-10B is stealth, rather low RCS.
    AESA, RAM coating, DSI, grater composites are the confirmed measures taken, some say that the WS-10X would be used, this however seems unlikely.

    Sir, do you know fo the RCS of the J-10B, because it is low, much lower then MKI, I reckon the J-10B could find the MKI much before MKI could see the J-10B.

    J-10 is already very maneuverable, but post stall maneuvers aren't such a good idea for MKI.
    Given that PL-5eII and and advanced HMS would mean that it would be down to pilot skill.
     
  4. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    5,744
    Likes Received:
    2,114
    I agree, but even after much pressure on Russia about the RD-93, I can't say for sure if AL-31 will power FC-20.
    But the fact is that AL-31 has been ordered and WS-10 is being tested while WS-10 production rate will be increased, lack of AL-31 and lagg of WS-10 may slow it down but only just a bit.
     
  5. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    5,744
    Likes Received:
    2,114
    @ MiG-23MLD

    here is a comment from a USAF pilot who was pitted against the MKI at red flag!

     
  6. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Messages:
    3,453
    Likes Received:
    632
    what is the limit of stealth and RAM and composite are thing which can easily put at both
    and if j-10 detect mki at 200 km away then what heppen that pilot still wait for 100-120 km and at this distance both can detect each other so the war was 1vs 1 and mki win by 272vs150 and still we having 122 mki and they are enough to destroy any country
     
  7. Young Wolf

    Young Wolf 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    20
    IAF pilots got shot down cause the USAF was expecting them to use the tvc and they had trained against the f 22 and knew of its limitations.
    Afaik pakistan has not trained against any jet with tvc ( I could very well be wrong as I dont have details of who the PAF trains against ).
    The cobra is very useful, but only as long as the other pilot is not expecting it - if he is then you are dead meat but if he isnt then he is...... it would be very useful against new pilots with limited flying hours and experience.
     
  8. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    5,744
    Likes Received:
    2,114
    I'm not sure of PAF pilot training of that matter.
    But cobra is damn near useless, the chances of you needing at slim, it is for airshows only, you first have to jettison any extra load, any at all even WVRAAM, then it has to be executed correctly, which only expert pilots can do correctly, also, you better hope that your enemy doesn't see it coming.

    Advertising cobra as a n advantage is just wrong.
     
  9. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    5,744
    Likes Received:
    2,114
    it's naive to say.... 272 - 150 = 122 so we win.
    a J-10 and MKI can be armed with lots of AAMs, so it's useless debating such things
     
  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    that is not accurate, poststall won`t make you be killed is the total opposite, to start with TVC nozzles increases turn rates in an average of 10-15%, then the Su-30MKI will be better than a J-11, the Gripen is inferior to a MiG-29 in sustained turn rate, J-10 might be better but not by much, in instantaneous the J-10 is superior like Gripen to Su-27, but Su-30MKI has TVC nozzles so it makes it a match if not superior to J-10B.

    Add post stall, HMS and you get a jet with superior kinetics to J-10B.

    what these USAF reports do not mention is kill rates, sure 10% of the kills can be done by F-15s but 90% are done by Su-30MKI at WVR using post stall.

    If the J-10 is too close for missiles, then post stall is better using cobra, but the herbst maneuvre and kulbit only are done by Su-30MKI.
    J-10 also is underpowered, in order to keep long range CAP requires external fuel tanks, so the HMS is required by J-10, but here is the point, missiles J-10 can not carry many, thus it will have less chances to beat Su-30MKI in BVR and WVR, besides Su-30MKI has also HMS
    flat sides and fuel tanks make J-10 not stealthy, easy to track
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    add weapons and you will discover that the DSI main advantage is weight
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2011
  11. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Messages:
    3,453
    Likes Received:
    632
    ok then think about LCA mk-2 with RAM and already it has small RCS and able to carry advance weapon so why not LCA vs J-10
     
  12. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Messages:
    3,453
    Likes Received:
    632
    [​IMG]
    whach carefully and imagine the RCS i am sure it will cross 5 M2
     
  13. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    the american pilot was misquoted, in close combat the F-22 surpasses F-15s, sure the F-15 can kill the F-22 even if the F-22 uses post stall, that was know to the americans since X-31 was pitted against F-18s, but kill rates always favour the aircraft with TVC nozzles, in a relation 9:1, the american pilot said Su-30MKI is better than F-15 for sure, but people think a few victories mean post stall is no use, that is not true, F-22 will beat the F-15 more often even if the F-22 once in a while gets whacked
     
    2 people like this.
  14. Dilemma

    Dilemma Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,402
    Likes Received:
    360
    Oh god not the Red Flag discussion all over again. If you are referring to the person in the video who criticized the MKIs, he's the one who also said the MKIs are better than the F-16 and F-15 but not close to the F-22. Lets not go off tangent and stick to the topic.

    About the MMRCA deliveries, as per the RFP, the winner HAS to deliver 18 jets off the shelf before 36 months (3 years) of the contract being signed. As the two competitors left are not Russian, we can expect delivery schedules will be followed. The French have no problem as they even offered the IAF 40 Rafales fast-track deliveries during the Garuda exercises. If you feel the EFT will not be delivered on time, the RAF and the Luftwaffe will be happy to wait longer to get their jets as they cannot afford operating them due to the current economic situation.

    Looking at the way things are going, the winner is going to be decided by Nov-Dec this year so yeah, 18 Rafales/EFTs will be in India by 2014.
     
  15. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    LCA has very low wing loading and comparable TWR, the LCA must be really good once the FCS is up to the task, it must be as good as the J-10B
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page