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Chinese J-20 and J-31 5th Generation Fighter Jets

Discussion in 'China & Asia Pacific' started by Martian, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  2. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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  3. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    I have to admit this is a nice looking aircraft, but i do not think is is really good, it is underpowered, has a small wing, weapons bays and fuel capacity, prety much i think besides being cute, i think no chance to beat Su-57 or F-22
     
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  4. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It is not build to beat F-22 or Su-57. J-31 is medium class like rafale.
     
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  5. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    I know but the size of the machine and having two engines implies small fuel capacity, and to be honest Rafale will beat it in dogfights, it is only a stealth machine more an attacker than a fighter.

    it has too small wing, chines add some lift, but if it does not have enough wing i do not expect it to beat even F-16

    You have two consider two engines an a weapons bay take space for fuel, RD-33 are old, the DSI is only for speeds of Mach 1.6 going to Mach 2 will mean lots of afterburner and the engines can not achieve good pressure recovery after Mach 1.8 due to DSI limits of being an external compression type intake, so it is also slow and very likely not agile
     
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  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Too early to judge any of this. Even the chinese are not sure about the specifications. According to reports the second prototype is 3 ton heavy. Its will be evolving as the program goes by and Its intended engine is WS-13 not russian.
     
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  7. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Stealth aircraft always increase the fuselage size because the weapons bays are built inside the fuselage, it is like an F-16 with conformal fuel tanks but instead of being optional and detachable, they are built in the fuselage, in order to upset this factor you need bigger wings and more powerful engines like in F-22 that has a huge wing and very powerful engines, that jet has too tiny wings, the Americans knew that so F-35 has a single very powerful engine, but has more lateral space and bigger volume in the booms, basically the Americans skipped the mistake the Chinese did, further more that boxy fuselage increases volume, but that volume is filled by the engines so you get more drag and less fuel, If F-35 has troubles, JF-31 can be expected to be not good, J-20 in that regard has more future more internal volume, means more range even if it is underpowered

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    How are you judging all these without specifications? From what i see its very close to our AMCA design. Only visible difference is intake.

    @Sancho @vstol jockey

    [​IMG]
     
  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    shape wise is not the problem but size wise is, if you compare the F-16 to an F-35 you automatically see the F-35 first is heavier, bigger, fatter in cross section, for F-35 to beat F-16 needs to have similar wing loading and TWR.

    wing loading only can be equal for F-35 if it has a bigger wing than F-16, why? F-35 is much heavier, if the wing is smaller you end up having a high wing loading that is why F-35 can not beat F-16 in dogfights, in order to accelerate quickly it needs a thrust to weight ratio higher than F-16, Some jets can achieve fast speeds with low TWR but they are sluggish in acceleration.The Chinese jets only represent a danger due to stealth, performance wise are not match to leaner and more powerful fighters with better engines.
    If you look F-15 has almost the same TWR of F-22, however the F-22 has bigger wings and more powerful engines just to offset the heavier airframe and bigger size (in volume), add TV nozzles and you get a better fighter, fit an F-22 with F100 engines without TVC nozzles well the F-22 will be not able to beat F-15.

    That is what China has done, fitting Flanker type engines to a F-22 class size and without TVC nozzles, but remember the Chinese fighter is bigger thus it will carry more fuel, you can expect a sluggish jet.

    F-35 is that type of aircraft but they think stealth will be able to keep it out of WVR fights, and avionics allow it to shoot first, well who knows maybe S-500 will down it first
     
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  11. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    [​IMG] you can see it has a small wing

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    J-31 is doing a turn. You can see vertical tail of it but not others.
     
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  13. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
    there you can see it has small wings, F-22 has huge wings, just to offset its large weight, but J-31 has small wings, no fuel space and it is twin engined.
     
  14. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Shenyang J-31
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    J-31
    [​IMG]
    J-31 prototype at 2014 China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition
    Role Stealth multirole fighter
    National origin China
    Manufacturer Shenyang Aircraft Corporation
    Designer Shenyang Aircraft Corporation
    First flight 31 October 2012[1]
    Introduction 2018-19 (estimated)
    Status Flight testing
    Number built 2 prototypes[2][3][4]
    The Shenyang J-31[5][6] (or "FC-31 fifth Generation Multi-Purpose Medium Fighter")[7] also known as the "Gyrfalcon" (鹘鹰), or "Falcon Hawk" by some military enthusiasts,[8][9] is a twin-engine, mid-size fifth-generation jet fighter currently under development by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. The fighter has also been referred to as the "F-60" or "J-21 Snowy Owl" (雪鸮) in some media reports.[3][5][10] Its official name is Shenyang FC-31; J-xx nomenclatures in the Chinese military are reserved to programs launched and financed by the army, while this plane was developed by a state-owned company.[11]



    Contents
    [1Development


    Development[edit]
    A photo of a model labeled F-60 was posted on the Internet in September 2011.[12] In June 2012, photos and camera video clips started to emerge on internet about a heavily overwrapped possible F-60 prototype being road-transferred on a highway, earning the nickname "the zongzi plane" (粽子机) among Chinese netizens, though some suspect it of merely being a L-15 trainer aircraft.[13] Pictures of a possibly fully assembled aircraft parking on an airfield emerged on September 15–16, 2012.[14][15] The F-60 is reported to be the export version, where the J-31 would be the domestic Chinese version of the same fighter.[16] Chinese aviation expert Xu Yongling has called the J-31 an export-oriented low-end latest generation warplane.[17]

    Flight testing[edit]
    The prototype conducted a high-speed taxiing test and briefly became airborne. On 31 October 2012, prototype No. 31001 conducted the model's maiden flight.[1][3][18][19][20] It was accompanied by two J-11 fighters in a ten-minute test flight with its landing gear lowered.

    With the maiden test flight of the prototype No.31001 on October 31, 2012, China became the second nation after the 1991 Advanced Tactical Fighter fly off, to have two stealth fighter designs in field-testing at the same time.[18][19] The aircraft has continued a limited test program, with footage emerging of further flights which took place in February 2013.[21]

    Public unveiling[edit]
    A 1/4 scale model of the J-31 was shown at the China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition 2012, hinting at a desire to offer the aircraft for export, as an alternative for those countries that cannot purchase the F-35.[22][23]

    The J-31 airframe was publicly unveiled on November 12, 2014 at Zhuhai Airshow.[24][25] In TV broadcast of the unveiling, AVIC chairman Lin Zuoming claimed that funding for the aircraft came entirely from the company, with no input from military.[26]

    As typical in flight displays of fighter jets, afterburners were engaged throughout the maneuvers. Nevertheless, Western media claimed it to be evidence of aerodynamic inefficiencies, concluding that the aircraft "bleeds a lot of energy and the pilot had a hard time keeping the nose up." Flights were done when the jet was "clean," so results would be worse when fitted with a combat loadout. However, a large-scale model of the FC-31 on display did show some detail changes of configuration compared to the flying prototype.[27]

    At the 2015 Dubai Airshow, AVIC released more details regarding the aircraft's capabilities. The company revealed it is still looking for a partner in the aircraft project, and is actively marketing the aircraft to People's Liberation Army Air Force. AVIC's plan is to have a production model first flight by 2019.[28][29]

    Future[edit]
    Due to mixed reports from China, it is unknown as to whether the J-31 will be inducted as a naval fighter, or only intended for foreign customers.[9][30] In one interview with China's state media, the J-31's chief designer Sun Cong expressed his hope that the aircraft would follow his J-15 onto China's aircraft carriers.[31][32] However, officials from AVIC only said that the aircraft was intended for export as a competitor to the F-35.[33][34][35][36]

    In 2015, Jiangsu A-Star Aviation Industries Company marketed its EOTS-86 infra-red search and track as a possible addition to the J-31.[37]

    An improved prototype, with modifications to the vertical stabilizers, wings, and airframe, an electro-optical targeting system, a larger payload, improvements in stealth, and upgraded electronics, made its maiden flight in December 2016.[4][38]

    Design[edit]
    [​IMG]
    J-31 in-flight
    J-31 incorporates certain stealth characteristics such as forward swept intake ramps with diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) bumps and a two-piece canopy.

    Airframe[edit]
    The J-31 is smaller than the Chengdu J-20. The use of twin-wheel nose landing gear led to speculations that the J-31 may have been intended to be a carrier based fighter.[39][40][41] Bill Sweetman has cited several improvements to the F-35C design files the Chinese may have acquired in the J-31.[42] Like the F-35, the J-31 has two internal weapons bays that can each carry two medium range missiles, along with two heavy hardpoints and one light hardpoint on each wing, but while it seems to have added an additional light hardpoint to each wing over the capacity of the F-35, it seems to lack the capacity of the F-35 to mount a centerline gunnery or jamming pod.[43]

    Officials from AVIC claimed that additive manufacturing was extensively used on the aircraft, resulting in 50% reduction in components compared to similar aircraft. However, the resulting airframe cannot be disassembled, and the static test frame had to be transported in whole as a consequence.[26]

    Engines[edit]
    According to Vladimir Barkovsky of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (formerly known as the Mikoyan-Gurevich Design Bureau), the engines on the prototype aircraft are RD-93s.[14][44] However, China already has an engine similar to the RD-93, the Guizhou WS-13 currently installed on the JF-17 which has the same thrust and size of the Russian RD-93. China is working on an improved variant named WS-13E with 100KN of thrust for use on the J-31. Lin Zuoming, chairman of China's AVIC, has said that he hopes to put domestic engines on the fighter.[45] As the Chinese build up confidence in newer, more reliable and powerful domestic engines, they may be able to power the J-31 sooner than the larger J-20 and in greater numbers.[46]

    Payload[edit]
    The J-31 can carry 8000 kg (17637 lb) of payload, with four munitions totaling 2000 kg (4409 lb) internally, and 6000 kg (13228 lb) carried on six external hardpoints; primary armaments include the PL-10 short-range missile and SD-10A medium-range air-to-air missile. It has a combat radius of 648 nmi (746 mi; 1,200 km) and a maximum take-off weight of 25,000 kg (55,000 lb).[28][29]

    Stealth[edit]
    The J-31 is speculated to use stealth coatings instead of "baked in" fiber-mat stealth.[47] AVIC claimed the aircraft to be stealthy against L-band and Ku-band radars, and would be low-observable against a number of multi-spectrum sensors.[28] The engine nozzles are apparently being redesigned to reduce radar and infrared signatures.[48]

    Foreign reactions[edit]
    The appearance of the J-31 raised concern about a potential arms race in Asia, as some of China's neighbors pursuing the development of their own fifth generation aircraft i.e. India with their HAL AMCA and HAL FGFA, Japan with Mitsubishi X-2 and South Korea with KAI KF-X or consider purchasing the F-35 and PAK FA.[49][50][51][52]

    U.S. military and industry officials believe that once the J-31 enters service, it will automatically be a match for existing fourth-generation fighters like the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. They suggest that the capability of the J-31 against the newest fighters, such as the American F-22 and F-35, would depend on factors such as numbers of platforms, quality of pilots, and capabilities of radars and other sensors.[53]

    Vladimir Barkovsky of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (formerly known as the Mikoyan-Gurevich Design Bureau) has stated that, despite some design flaws, the J-31 "looks like a good machine." Although it contains features already in use on the U.S. fifth generation fighter designs, it is "not a copy but a well done indigenous design."[14]

    Specifications (estimated)[edit]
    Because the aircraft is in development, these specifications — based on available imagery — are approximate and preliminary.

    Data from Aviation Week[54] unless otherwise attributed

    General characteristics

    • Crew: one (pilot)
    • Length: 17.3 m (56 ft 9 in) [55]
    • Wingspan: 11.5 m (37 ft 9 in)
    • Height: 4.8 m (15 ft 9 in)
    • Wing area: 40 m2 (430 sq ft) [56]
    • Max takeoff weight: 28,000 kg (61,729 lb) [55]
    • Powerplant: 2 × RD-93 afterburning turbofans, 85 kN (19,000 lbf) thrust each
    • Powerplant: 2 × WS-13 afterburning turbofans, 100 kN (23,000 lbf) thrust each (projected upgrade)
    • Maximum speed: 2,200 km/h (1,367 mph; 1,188 kn)
    • Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
    • Combat range: 1,250 km (777 mi; 675 nmi) on internal fuel, or 2,000 kilometres (1,200 mi) with external tanks
    Armament

    Avionics

    • Distributed aperture system (DAS) optical early-warning system[55]
    • Electro-optical targeting system (EOTS)[55]
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    And that alone is a game changer!
    Rafale might offer better flight performance, but still needs to be able to detect and get a lock on it. If that's not the case, any 4.5th gen fighter is in deep disadvantage, no matter how advanced the other systems are.

    For PAF that focuses on force multipliers since Kargil, this would be another game changer after cruise missiles, AWACS and JF17, because J31 would give then offensive capabilities for pre-emptive strikes, SEAD or to attack our AWACS, which they don't have now.

    Stealth is a game changer technology, no matter how bad the performance of the fighter is. And with the close proximity, they don't even need long range, but I still would prefer them to get J31 than a TFX fighter with Western systems.
     
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