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Chinese J-20 and J-31 5th Generation Fighter Jets

Discussion in 'China & Asia Pacific' started by Martian, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    I agree i do not disagree stealth is an advantage true, however stealth is not invisibility, see that, J-31 has not TVC nozzles so it needs to deflect its tail more than F-22, thus it will generate a bigger RCS if it goes supersonic, it will even deflect more and it will spend more fuel and with an DSI means it will not go very fast supersonic; second it has a small weapons bay, no air to air missile has a 100% kill probability, a fighter that is more maneuvrable and faster always can avoid incoming missiles better.

    IRST system see stealth aircraft, even fighter aircraft radars, see them at closer range true but they see them.

    Most fighters have a small RCS frontally because they are not flat but pointed, 4.5 generation fighters are not stealth mostly from the sides because they have corner reflectors and discontinuities.


    Stealth does not give you pre-emptive capability, the USA has had Stealth B-2s and never has Attacked Russia. Have you seen F-22 flying in Syria in Russian controlled air space? no you have not Russia has S-400s

    Stealth is an advantage but not an invincibility trait and feature, stealth also is a commercial ploy.


    Stealth is more an economic weapon, because it forces other rivals to invest in new radars and new air defences, thus it costs money.

    Stealth fighters do enjoy advantages, lower RCS of course is an advantage, but the Chinese aircraft are not VTOL, they need bases, which can be monitored by satellites and UAVs and thus attacked.

    India will develop stealth aircraft to force China to to spend money and reduce what ever stealth brings to them as an advantage but tactically Submarines with SLBM and movile ICBMs will always balance stealth fighters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  2. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is the most advanced aircraft in the Pentagon's arsenal, but Russia's powerful over-the-horizon Podsolnukh (Sunflower) radar is capable of detecting and tracking the stealth fifth-generation plane or any other fighter jet that was designed to avoid detection, Svobodnaya Pressa reported.




    © SPUTNIK / VITALIY ANKOV
    'Success for Russia': Moscow Rises Into the Lead in Aerial Surveillance
    The Podsolnukh short-range over-the-horizon surface-wave radar is developed by Moscow-based OJSC NPK NIIDAR. The Russian Defense Ministry plans to deploy several of these systems in the Arctic, as well as on Russia's southern and western borders.


    The radar is capable of detecting sea surface and air objects at a maximum distance of 500 kilometers (over 310 miles) at different altitudes in line of sight and over the horizon. The Podsolnukh "can simultaneously detect, track and classify up top 300 sea and 100 aerial targets in an automatic mode," the Global Security website detailed.

    There is an additional advantage that this type of radars brings to the table. "Short-wave stations see stealth fighter jets as clearly as WWII-era aircraft," Svobodnaya Pressa observed, referring to cutting-edge planes that have been created to avoid detection by radars or sonars, like the F-35.




    © SPUTNIK / SERGEY MAMONTOV
    Cutting-Edge Russian Floating Nuclear Power Station Undergoes Mooring Tests
    The Podsolnukh has more to offer. The system could be put online in ten days and needs a team of just three people to stay operational, the media outlet explained. It does not need much power, it is easy to operate and it does not have much equipment. The radar stations have to be placed 370 kilometers apart to receive complete coverage.


    Sea- and shore-based OTHR systems are becoming increasingly popular in coastal nations, who want to protect their exclusive economic zones from piracy, smuggling and illegal fishing. They also have military application. The radars could are capable of issuing alerts in case of an invasion or subversive activity.

    Three Podsolnukh stations are operational in Russia at the moment. They are located in the Sea of Okhotsk, the Sea of Japan and the Caspian Sea.

    https://sputniknews.com/science/201607021042341025-russia-podsolnukh-radar-f35/
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Of course not, at a certain range every fighter can be detected, but the difficulty is to get to that range!
    Any stealth fighter has the first sight advantage over 4.5th gen fighters and that gives them the edge to position themselves out of detection range of the enemy, or to close in without being detected. Speed or manuverability then doesn't count, since you only know about the presence of the stealth fighter when the weapon is launched and the radar is turned on.

    Without high end AWACS and SAMs, you can't defend yourself against stealth and that's why it's a force multiplier for any Air Force, in offensive and surveillance roles.

    We know that F22 and F35 were deployed by the US and Israel in Syria and made strikes. Having S400 on the ground, doesn't mean they are ready to use them to protect Syrian forces. But it's likely that they will have a better chance against stealth fighters, than conventional fighters or double digit SAMs.
     
  4. Pundrick

    Pundrick Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This pictures proves that Americans tricked Chinese by giving them blue print of top view & front section of F-35 and had put up a blue print of rear view of Mig-29 in the same folder, just in case the Chinese hack their system.:lol::lol:

    Just look at the vertical rear wings, I think the Mig corporation had extra wings and they gave it to Chinese to fit anywhere they want.

    But their way of manufacturing anything by reverse engineering has to be appreciated.:tup::tup:
     
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  5. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Many people without basic aerodynamics knowledge consider a fifth generation stealthy jet fighter can be designed and manufactured just by reverse engineering. What a joke!

    Without strict aerodynamics test in wind tunnel and long time R&D in advanced aviation manufacturing technology, no country can produce the fifth generation stealthy jet fighter.

    Your mentality about how to design and manufacture fifth generation stealthy jet fighter is ridiculous.
     
  6. RMFAN

    RMFAN Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Sancho, aircraft are designed to strike targets, nowadays the ground defence system has radars capable of detecting stealth (well that is what they say) further more, they are designing new types of radars and IRST system to be airborne by fighter, but AWACS do see stealth aircraft, stealth is just a ploy, economic ploy, of course if you face a F-22 versus a MiG-29 from the 1980s or even 1990s well, the Fulcrum will operate a long ranged radar, but Su-35 has a radar and IRST system that very likely will locate the F-22 within range if it sweeps areas in groups and use data link.


    Of course Su-57 is better it makes things easier, but do not swallow the stealth propaganda, stealth aircraft reflect radar waves, using bi-static radars they can triangulate their positions, not for nothing F-22 has supercruise, speed is life, do you think if F-117 was so good would it be retired even before F-15?
    By the way, F-22 has not violated Russian aerospace in Syria, Russia warned the USA they will fire if they get into their no fly zone, F-22 by violating that area have risks of being downed and start a conflict, same Israel, they have only operate outside the Russian controlled air space
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    As I said, at a certain range any fighter can be detected, but stealth is certainly not a ploy, otherwise not all major countries in the world would invest so much into it right now. The tendency for the 6th gen is even more stealth, by removing tail fins and canards too. So I have to disagree on that.
     
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Interesting, thx for sharing! Are there similar spec boards about it's sensors?
     
  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Sancho stealth is a need, not a panacea of invincibility, current S-300 can beat F-15 and F-16s with ease, very likely S-400 represent a threat to even F-22 and F-35 and S-500 will very likely defeat them, thus they need to reduce RCS, is not that Stealth is equal to invincibility, remember F-22 and F-35 are ultra expensive and thus they are presented as super weapons, but in reality they have vulnerabilities, and as time passes they become old and obsolete.

    China also is moving ahead under the same idea, but their jets have performance problems due to weak engines, to give you an example Gripen has combat range of 1500km and very likely it is much more agile, the JF-31 is crap, it weighs 28 tonnes very likely with external stores, however they do not tell you details for example range in is quoted 1250km, which is inferior to Rafale`s, further more just look at the landing run of JF-31 is 700 meters in fact it more than a Su-27 and much more than a Rafale
    Comparing that you can see the Chinese jet has high wing loading, thus is not very agile and you will see it will not out accelerate a Rafale

     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Which however is not an issue, if stealth is the priority and not dogfighting.
    A Rafale for example won't be able to detect a J31 / F35 with radar at long ranges, which puts the BVR advantage in the opponents hand. He can engage the combat at his terms and stay out of radar and IRST detection. That's basic BVR tactics, just that the first sight advantage is far higher for stealth fighters. Flight performance then don't play any role, because the target is you are killed before you know it.

    You can see the same in the reports of the Trident exercise of this year too, where US pilots reports to be killed (simulated), without knowing the F22 or F35 were present and that even with AWACS support.


    Yes stealth doesn't mean invincible, but, it offers a clear advantage.
     
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  12. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    yes but you forget Rafale can supercruise, by moving faster means the J-31 has to fire from closer ranges, otherwise its missiles have much less effectiveness, Why do you think PAKFA has variable geometry intakes and needs T-30? answer Speed, Su-35 is the same, not for nothing Russia offered 117 for Su-30MKI upgrade, the J-31 is fat and heavy so it is underpowered, that means bad acceleration, bad rate of climb, too heavy means when it goes supersonic accelerates slowly once it reaches supersonic speeds drag increases it needs to deflect more becoming less stealthy and spends more fuel.
    Remember Eurofighter with better engines than J-31 has to supercruise in a relatively light configuration, by getting full weight, J-31, is fat, slow, subsonic, getting light weight, well small range!: azn:


    In few words is easy to understand why the Chinese have around 20 J-20 and only 2 or 3 J-31, now remember, the longer it takes to take off, the more the need to regular airstrip and bases, less range means close to the enemy lines, thus closer to be destroyed on the ground and not the air
    The trident exercise is also controlled exercise, not realistic, for example the F-22 is not available all of the time it needs too much maintenance, too much time on the ground means easy to know where it is, in base.


    Too expensive to operate, a first class defence will include SAMs and air strike by long range aircraft like Tu-22M or Tu-160M2.


    Why do you think even having B-2s the USA has never attacked Russia? Or China?

    they are not Serbia
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
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  13. Pundrick

    Pundrick Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    You, my friend, are just supporting what I said in my post.
    Thank you :cool:
     
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    [​IMG]

    That's an insane amount of fuel there.

    Probably about 9000L of it.
     
  15. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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