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Chinese troops intrude into Indian territory in Ladakh, erect tent post

Discussion in 'International Relations' started by Rock n Rolla, Apr 20, 2013.

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  1. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    If Modi is Sardar Patel 2.0. He and Brahma Chellany will be the death of China!!!
     
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  2. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    1962 is Indian government's folly first and Chinese aggression the second. In a full-scale war you attack every vulnerable point in the enemy's land, not neccesarily the land you claim as yours. Likewise, in 1971 India attacked not only East Pakistan (which we were saying the West pakistan was annexing), but also the West pakistan as well, although our main target was to liberate the East.

    The Chinese claim on Arunachal Pradesh has no truth to it, it is baseless and unsupported. Arunachal Pradesh is genuine Indian land. PLA knows that too. The maproblem causing in tussle between India v/s China is the Tibet Govt. issue. Once we solve this issue of dismantling TGIE and give China what it's respectably due (full control over Tibet's governance), PLA will have no genuine reason to hate India. That said, we can have more freedom in building up better infrastructure and troop buildup along the LAC, which we can then usurp with military aggression at a suitable time.

    India has genuine reason to lay claim to everything that is upto OUR perception of the LAC.

    The TGIE has no point in remaining active in India because India has already recognised TAR as genuine Chinese territory. Do we claim any land except the LAC in Tibet? No. Do we claim right to govern TAR? No. So I don't see any point in hosting TGIE. It will only hamper our own ability to set up aggressive postures along the border cause we are percepted as double-crossers.

    How would you like it if PRC govt. starts a "Government of Arunachal Pradesh/Govt. of South Tibet" office in Beijing? That would have been the most obvious response from China when we start hosting Tibetan Government in India. But they won't, or to be more precise, they can't! Because they know the acroymn "South Tibet" is just a term coined in response to India's hosting of TGIE, it has no basis in reality. As of hosting TGIE AFTER acknowledging Tibet as part of China, is there any right-mindedness in that?

    As of Indian military preparedness in the region, I agree we are more alert and equipped to deal with the situation than in 1962, but we lack the infrastcruture to support and resupply that preparedness. As you said there are 200,000 PLA troops and facing them are less than 30,000-35,000 IA troops at the moment. Besidesm China has advanced road and rail infrastructure that can ferry in 100s of tanks, additional forces, ammo, food supplies in a trice. The PLAAF has a bigger number of aircraft stationed in TAR of the 4th generation type than what India has currently positioned near LAC. The number of Surface-to-Air Missiles, rocket artillery, mortar supprt, fixed artillery etc of China FAR OUTNUMBERS what IA can position there in the required time.What do you expect the result to be if a full-scale war breaks out? Be realistic.

    And we must learn to differentiate between a full-scale invasion and small border aggressions, which can be solved in matter of days to 1 week, and do not require any material resupply because
    the available material is hardly used.

    Once we dismantle TGIE, our nation and military will be far more guilt-free. But let's remember one thing for sure, continuing the tussle between these 2 nations by provoking each other will bring will no benefit to either India or China. Let us not allow our national decisions to be held questionable by PRC. Then, we should concentrate on heavy troop build-up and material availability to deter any possible future Chinese aggression. If our policy is dirt-free and our troop build-up formidable, PLA will have no option but to silentry shut up their claim on "South Tibet". Because China too knows, a war with India will damage and destroy it's image, resources and military heavily.

    We must remember that provoking each other and waging ridiculous policies on one another does not bring a solution to the problem. Our govt. was a fool back in 1962, correct, but what makes you think we are any better now? Same stupid leaders, same lack of foresight, same lack of attentiveness towards military needs, same Congress sitting in power. Perfect formula for a national failure.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
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  3. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Am replying to Gessler's post; my replies in blue

    You have raised some interesting points.
    "1962 is Indian government's folly first and Chinese aggression the second. In a full-scale war you attack every vulnerable point in the enemy's land...."


    Exactly true. The enemy were daring to threaten us and reinforce their dreamt up propaganda of so called South Tibet and Aksai Chin by attacking these 2 frontiers in 1962. And as our army was coming to grips with the war having being taken by complete surprise by treacherous enemy and turning around with massive retaliation, the enemy declared ceasefire and turned tail.


    "The Chinese claim on Arunachal Pradesh has no truth to it, it is baseless and unsupported. Arunachal Pradesh is genuine Indian land. PLA knows that too..."


    That is OUR PRESUMPTION. The enemy's actions and words for the last 50+ years show otherwise. The Depsang valley incident is just another added to that long list of transgressions. The enemy has occupied our land in Aksai chin and show Arunachal as chnese in their propaganda map.


    "The TGIE has no point in remaining active in India because India has already recognised TAR as genuine Chinese territory. Do we claim any land except the LAC in Tibet? No. Do we claim right to govern TAR? No. So I don't see any point in hosting TGIE. It will only hamper our own ability to set up aggressive postures along the border cause we are percepted as double-crossers."

    Agreed. We have never ever invaded or have any territorial claims to Tibet. We kept silent when China attacked Tibet in 1950 because Nehru believed the lies and deceit of the treacherous Chinese that 'they are our friends' - Hindi chini [ whatever:sarcastic:]. Nothing can be more farther from the truth and we are paying for it till today. They dare to intrude on our land. They dare to give stapeld visas to Kashmiris and Arunachalis. They dare to refuse Visa to our generals serving in kashmir. So how should we return these favors???? We should prop up the TGIE when they they retake Tibet with our help!!!We will never invade Tibet on our own but since the Chinese want a full scale war to claim their nonsensical demands of our land and territory we are fully prepared for asymmetrical warfare with nuclear options. Now am sure the frightened PLA agrees with this reality. Love the enemy's realism btw


    "How would you like it if PRC govt. starts a "Government of Arunachal Pradesh/Govt. of South Tibet" office in Beijing?"


    Matter of fact I wont be surprised if they do. Why just Arunachal they can build a replica of parliament house in Beijing and say its the govt.of India. The Chinese are great and shameless copycats:taz:

    Let us not forget the geo-logistical equations. The Chinese are being harassed from all sides right now - Taiwan, Phillipines, Vietnam and Japan. China has already been warned on the Senkaku (Chinese Daiyou - they give fancy names and then claim it) islands dispute with Japan with USA commited to protect. This is a critical time where the dice would change any moment and we have to join in the rolling of it in the end:BVICTORY:.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
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  4. omya

    omya Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    [MENTION=8572]Gessler[/MENTION] ^^^
     
  5. CountryFirst

    CountryFirst BANNED BANNED

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    To play us into this is what America wants, that we get weak and China will be weakened too. If we just stay put, then America will attack them, then America and China will get weak. Then we can attack them and get our lands back without any serious damage to our country, defenses and without loosing the lives of our jawans. think about it. At this time we should actually push policies that's favorable to us, but those which America will disagree with at any other time. Coz since India is critical to America, we can do whatever we want. And after the China-America war, both will be reduced and we can do whatever we want. Let's think and act instead of looking macho.

    And on an important note, it doesn't matter who's side truth is on. At the end of the day, the guy with bigger guns win. Dalai lama has already given up on freedom for tibet and is now insisting on a middle-policy which asks for autonomy.

    Let's stop wasting time on whose land it is. Let's think and act. At the end of the day, everything will come to our hands if we act after thinking and not play into anyone's hands or do stupid things to look macho.

    Yes, it maybe justified to defend our lands, but think about it, if we just stay put, we'll gain later. Do we need to mess up a chance to reduce the power of America and China in one shot??
     
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  6. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    America is our ally so I would return the favor. Vis-a-vis china the US is light years ahead in military prowess. As for China its for everyone to see throwing its weight around like a school bully with smaller neighbors. The Chinese stand only for themselves. They care a rat's ass about anyone else. See how they have annihillated the Tibetans and Uighurs and usurped their lands. You made a great point about waiting and securing our land and borders. I would suggest going on the offensive with China harassed from all sides in Asia.

    Btw its high time that the country's PM and leadership change their public image from this even if its only a pretence:sarcastic:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
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  7. Himanshu Pandey

    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

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    the claim of tibbat by china is all faulty and shows its expansionist ideology nothing else.... the TGIE is not the mistake but the acceptance of tibbat as part of china is a mistake... just becuase one of your dynsty ruled the land doesn't make it yours. tibbat was a free nation in all its history apart from some time it was help by chinise and british.

    if we go by chinise logic all of pakistan/afghanistan/bangladesh/shrilanka/parts of iran/ and most o south east asia should be claimed and invaded by India as indians ruled over them for many centuries... today nation and its boundry are decided by its poeple want to be in the nation or not.. europe and automan empire had produced many nations just because of it.

    china has no claim on Tibbat... rather then disbanding the TGIE we should retract our statement on tibbat and issue new one saying in the todays condition its is wise that china librate the tibbat( don't put kashmir in this as this is already a disputed land according to china) and we should establish full diplomatic ties with Taiwan...

    to win you play by your rules not by their rules... Indians, its govt, and army have no morality crisis when TGIE is compared with stapled visa for AP and Kashmir people... several time nations has changed their stance over issues as per their national interest. IMO time has come when we raise the issues of Taiwan, Tibbat, East turkmenistan, mangolia's part occupation by china and call them expansionist... we need to tell them now the game is going to be played as equal and if you don't stop your BS we can create ours.

    stand and fight is the thing a proud nation do.
     
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  8. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    What India should have done in 1954 was to disagree to recognising Tibet as part of China, and then hosting TGIE and TPIE at Dharamshala to play a proxy game with PRC and use that card to solve our own border issues at later dates.

    But our Great Congress leaders messed up every single opportunity that came our way.
     
  9. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    That is what it was meant to be - a propaganda. And just that.

    See, the Chinese seek to use their made-up claim on Arunachal Pradesh as a pressure point to get India to do what PRC wants. The transgressions and stand-offs are also part of applying pressure to get India to dismantle TGIE.

    And in reality, our govt. is simply bringing uncalled-for things upon ourselves by contradicting our own actions and "official statements".



    I think you are pretty messed up with the timeline of events actually. Chinese occupied Tibet in 1950, In 1954 India agreed to it that China has all rights over TAR, and it was then that we started to host TGIE and TPIE (Parliamet in exile), a strange decision in itself. That set China off. The stapled visas, propaganda maps, transgressions etc. came later. In short, these are the result of our own mismanagement process.

    Mistake #1 - We should never have recognised Tibet as part of China, and then offered to host Tibetan Govt. and Parliament in India

    Mistake #2 - When we recognised Tibet as part of China, we should never have hosted TGIE and TPIE. Thats a ridiculously laughable decision, and one which brought no real advantage to India in any diplomatic dialogue vis-a-vis PRC. As Prasun K Sengupta said: "What exactly have we gained by hosting TGIE for decades?" The answer is: - nothing.

    All it did was to give China a genuine reason to carry out it's anti-India propaganda.

    Mistake #3 - Nehru should have been a bit more practical and mature in 1962 rather than be jingoistic. A fool of a leader we had back there, and pray, our present set of leaders are a BIT more mature than him.


    Thats true but why are we making INDIA look like a drunken monkey sitting on the fence? When we should make a decision, we should think a 1000 times, especially when dealing with a shark like China. And when we do make a decision, we should go to any length to abide by it, even if it maybe a bad decision. Otherwise it will make us look like a bigger fool at the world stage.

    It is not China that is being harrased, it is China which is harrassing them! And thoughtfully speaking, the Chinese never really venture into a place that is above their level. They will patiently wait until they are at the enemy's level and then spring forward to any length to get what they want.

    Neither PRC nor the Western/West-allied forces will allow the situation in SCS slip beyond control, no one wants a war there. Secondly, there is nothing that India can do in that theatre and hope to gain something from it. Our startegic reach in not that far, and furthermore, why should we care what happens in SCS? We are unable to solve many of our nation's own problems here. Like China, we should never venture where we don't fit. Leave that to the big boys that can lay a finger anywhere on the globe, like Uncle Sam, and the countries concerned with the situation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
  10. Himanshu Pandey

    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

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    congress messed up so many things... but this was the biggest mistake done by them and write it down.. we will pay by blood again for this
     
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  11. criminally bad

    criminally bad BANNED BANNED

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    wow dude 4,600!!! i hope u will get 10,000 in 2013.:woot:
     
  12. UNAM

    UNAM 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    i sometime wonder whether we normal citizens get proper info or not. every other day media reports about chinese incursion but on other hand I've seen many army officers saying that as indo-china border is not properly marked so such incursions are normal even from indian side. if it is true then this issue should be solved only with talks but if it is not true or level of chinese incursion is way more than indian one then strong msg has to be passed by sending more forces not only to disputed sector but also to adjoining sectors.
     
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  13. Rock n Rolla

    Rock n Rolla Lt. Colonel STAR MEMBER

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    Do you really think America is going to attack China. Only way that will happen is, if China does something stupid on the Senaku Islands issue(US is committed to help Japan in case of such an incident).
     
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  14. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Disagree though I secretly hope you are right. The treacherous attack of 1962 on Arunachal and occupation of Aksai Chin to present day face to face in Depsang is message enough of enemy intentions. Btw when I say propaganda I meant from our POV of the enemy's farcial claims. What they call it is not of concern and why they think as such does not matter other than the fact that they are disputing Arunachal Pradesh and occupying Aksai Chin. Both 100% belonging to India. WHY? These are brazen expansionist conquests of Tibet. Of course the enemy wants us to kick out the Dalai Lama?TGIF to complete their conquest of Tibet. So IMO the TGIF and DL stays put in India as they have done and next step we legitimize them to teach china a lesson.

    The TGIE started in 1959 by Dalai Lama. After 1950 Tibet conquest the Chinese started their nefarious plans with our lands first in 1956 when Chinese maps showed some 120,000 square kilometres of Indian territory as Chinese in Arunachal and Ladakh. Nehru actually did one pragmatic thing right IMO with the forward policy due to which we are in firm control of Arunachal and Ladakh today! As for decision of hosting TGIF - we are laughing(of course our commie bros will not join in)


    It is not China that is being harrased, it is China which is harrassing them! And thoughtfully speaking, the Chinese never really venture into a place that is above their level. They will patiently wait until they are at the enemy's level and then spring forward to any length to get what they want.

    Neither PRC nor the Western/West-allied forces will allow the situation in SCS slip beyond control, no one wants a war there. Secondly, there is nothing that India can do in that theatre and hope to gain something from it. Our startegic reach in not that far, and furthermore, why should we care what happens in SCS? We are unable to solve many of our nation's own problems here. Like China, we should never venture where we don't fit. Leave that to the big boys that can lay a finger anywhere on the globe, like Uncle Sam, and the countries concerned with the situation.

    [/QUOTE]How does an alliance of USA backed Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam & Phillipines look like against the belligerent Chinese? Our interests in SCS is neutralization of Chinese expansionism. Our naval chief said we will use the naval force to protect our interests in SCS and he is not kidding. And being the 4th ranked armed forces we ARE very much a big boy!
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
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  15. CountryFirst

    CountryFirst BANNED BANNED

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    America is only an ally coz they want to tackle China. Please check how America was an ally to Iraq before in the pre-90s. And then later attacked Iraq and now completely destroyed it with WMDs. That is all there is to America.

    Yes America can attack China. Coz China is communist and they're expansionist. They don't respect the UN or the World bank, IMF laws, etc. If not stopped now, China will want to expand their maritim aggressively to a point where China will become the new America, and America doesn't like that. This was the reason for the whole cold war with Russia. Russia wasn't expansionist and still you say how they were treated. Now China is a communist expansionist country that is also going to threaten American supremacy.

    They'll find a way to put China down. We just need to stay put. Let America attack China on behalf of japan. Let's not get into it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
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