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Chinese troops transgress Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction sector in Doka La / Dokalam Area

Discussion in 'International Relations' started by Agent_47, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    There is a difference in what you say as a leader, to keep moral high and to what you think is actually needed to fullfil the job. The Air Chief showed that well, when he told his force to prepare for a 2 front war, to shortly after state that IAF needs more fighters to do it.

    And yes, India should not be dependent on other countries for the security of the nation or the reagion. That's why and over dependence on the US is wrong, while India leading an alliance of neighbouring countries, for the same goal is a different issue.
    We should have tried to bind Sri Lanka, Maldives, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore or even Bangladesh into a greater naval and defence alliance. Joint HDR, anti piracy and anti submarine missions, under the leadership of IN could make a big impact in the region and get those countries closer to us, than to China.
     
  2. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    So your implication is that our military leaders are bluffing. Now its good strategy to overestimate the enemy even when you can beat the crap out of him. But if the Chinese are the 10 feet tall masters of the planet as implied, they should have made salami chowmein of us by now(as they were used to doing TILL recently). Instead now its the dog that always barks but does not bite. As for the Navy interesting times - Malabar exercises smack in the Bay of Bengal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  3. Degenarate

    Degenarate FULL MEMBER

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    IAF helicopter goes missing during flood rescue mission in Arunachal Pradesh
    An Indian Air Force helicopter with three on board has gone missing near Sagalee in Papum Pare district of Arunachal Pradesh

    PTI
    [​IMG]
    Photo for representational purposes only. The Indian Air Force (IAF) helicopter was on a flood victim rescue mission in Sagalee, Arunachal Pradesh. Photo: AFP

    Itanagar: An Indian Air Force (IAF) helicopter, which was on a flood victim rescue mission, with three crew members on board, went missing near Sagalee in Papum Pare district of Arunachal Pradesh today, the defence officials said.

    The Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) lost contact soon after its take off from Sagalee at around 3.50pm before the rescue mission, Defence PRO Lt Col Sambit Ghosh said.

    The IAF chopper was rescuing people, stranded at Sagalee due to landslides, triggered by rains.

    People in the chief minister’s office here said chief minister Pema Khandu was monitoring the situation. Directives have been issued to the administration and the police to extend all possible help in the search and rescue operation. The villagers have also asked to help the administration in locating the missing chopper, the people said.

    http://www.livemint.com/Politics/Jb...copter-goes-missing-in-Arunachal-Pradesh.html
    -----------------------------------------------
    This is the second such incident after MKI one in little more than a month. China behind this?
     
  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    I hope this was a rhetorical statement put forth sarcastically!
     
  5. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Unfortunately, you have things right in front of you yet you ignore it.

    Did it cross your mind why the CoAS and then the COAS make such statements concurrently? What were the factors/reasons for such statements? Why did the CoAS shoot off a letter asking the IAF to be prepared for 10 days two front war?

    Why did COAS claim ability to fight 2.5 front war?

    The Chinese moves were in offing. This is a maneuver to apply pressure on India. They tried a stunt, it backfired. They did not expect the IA to cross the IB through their territory to move into Bhutan to secure it's interests. Yet, every Indian media outlet is painting this as a move into Sikkim whereas it is reverse, a move of IA into Chinese held territory to occupy Bhutanese claimed territory which China is claiming for itself.

    That is not only a reaffirmation of the aggressive thinking as witnessed under Gen Sunderji. but also a clear intent to indicate to China that India will intervene on behalf of it's friend and small neighbor the Kingdom of Bhutan.

    If the push comes to a shove, so be it. In 2013, in DBO, companies of 5 Ladakh Scouts were mobilized one after the other (all acclimatized troops who were acclimatized for sustained operations above 15000 ft) in DBO sector and Special Forces from SFF and 5 PARA SF were introduced while Sub Sector North was reinforced for conduct of offensive operations into Chinese Lines of Communication. The build up was decisive and spectacular. IA was merely awaiting orders from GoI for launch of offensive operations, but they never came.

    This time, GoI has given IA a free hand to respond to situation as required. While IA will not seek to escalate, it will not back down. And GoI is fully backing the armed forces on this one.

    Of course, it goes without saying that if India backs down, India loses it's standing.

    US, Israel and NATO members are on board with India on this one. As are others. We have excellent 'soft power' in play. The fact that IN ships were at SL immediately after the floods hit them, were not missed by anyone :)

    Chinese will not be seeking a military showdown, they expect an Indian backtracking like 2013 wherein after a month they moved out of DBO and 'peaceful resolution' of crisis occurred. In the present case, the COAS is a very aggressive chief and is not keen on toeing the 'political line' at the cost of military sense and security of nation. It is, indeed, interesting to see the COAS being aggressive as a soldier should be, irrespective of whether his views are in convergence to that of GoI or not. And the fact that the COAS is at times making statements that may exact political costs for present government, the maturity of the leadership is apparent in his not being 'reined in'.
     
    zebra7, Sam_, Project Dharma and 13 others like this.
  6. Bloom 17

    Bloom 17 2nd Lieutant IDF NewBie

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    Are the scouts being acclimatized in large numbers this time too? How is the situation on the ground( not the media hype)?
     
  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Scouts are raised to be the first responders in any case. They are acclimatized according to the area they are raised to operate in, usually certain percentage is always rotated into acclimatization for operations above 15000 ft as they can always operate in lower altitude, hence you have enough troops ready to meet any contingency.

    We consider 9000 ft as High Altitude Cat 1, 12000 ft Cat 2 and 15000 ft Cat 3. So expect Sikkim Scouts and SFF units in large numbers either ready or already in place along with the troops of the mountain divisions there.
     
    Sam_, dray, madmax613 and 9 others like this.
  8. defc0n

    defc0n 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    @Hellfire
    I was studying the terrain along the Indo-China border, mostly via pictures.
    In case China want to even think about escalating the issue to save themselves from losing face, they will have one heck of a problem in taking the fight to India.

    Let's categorise their actions into what the can and what they can't!

    What they can:
    1) Shoot off some cruise missiles from land/sea.
    2) Enter India air space with their jets and bomb the border areas.

    What they cannot:
    1) Deploy tanks/armoured divs against India thanks to the terrain. This is a huge disadvantage for China. [Same problem holds true for India as well, but since India is not the aggressor, it is not a problem]
    2) They cannot push their infantry into India without getting clobbered i) by the terrain and ii) by IA and IAF.

    A country needs its foot soldiers to win wars, doesn't matter what air force and navy that country might have! The US learned it the hard way in Vietnam!
    Therefore, if China decides to escalate, I am sure as hell they understand that they will be starting a war they cannot win, not in this day and age.

    Now, as far as China's posturing with their Navy is concerned, I hope they are prepared to deal with a barrage of Brahmos in the case of any misadventure, and that's not going to be a very pleasant thing to be up against as far as Chinese ships are concerned.

    If I am a little concerned about anything, it is their submarines, the reason being I don't know much about our defence against their submarines.
    What is IN's go to option to shut down their subs in case of escalation?
     
    Golden_Rule likes this.
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Well at least our defence minister and the Chinese called his remarks on 62 right away.
     
  10. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    So you think that you know more about India's preparedness than the Defence Minister

    Secondly what else do you expect the Chinese to say ; knowing very well
    how Egoistic they have become

    It has been nearly 20 days since this Face off began

    If they were really serious about getting this Plateau they would have used force
    by Now

    The Chinese know their limitations in this Chumbi Valley

    It is a death trap for them
     
    sangos likes this.
  11. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @Hellfire

    In the event of a conflict ; Can we drop some weapons in Tibet
    and let the Locals start a revolt
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    As I already said, there is a difference in what you say as a leader, to keep moral high and to what you think is actually needed to fullfil the job.

    Israel is a long term partner, the US an unreliable one and even more so since Trump is in office. The problem as said, is that we can't get neighbouring countries to get behind us. Yes, I hope IN's good efforts gets noticed, but that's not enough, since it requires political push to form alliances, which is even what the PM promised at the beginning, when he even wanted improve relationships to Pakistan, but nothing happened.

    That's a wish, but not what we see in the South Chinese Sea either. They have no problem to go against international law and even show the Americans, who is in charge there. And the same can happen along our borders when we are not strong and prepared enough. You don't really expect the US to back us, for a mountain range that has nothing to do with them right? Especially, when we still see, that their priority is not to make us more capable to fight China, but not make us too strong to p..s off Pakistan ("not alter the basic military balance in the region").

    If we want conventional deterrence...,

    1) we need to help us alone and get stronger

    2) find regional partners, that could feel threatened by China or Pakistan as well, instead of making us dependent on countries that are far away from us.

    3) Keep a strong bond to Russia, because they are the only power that actually can pose a threat to China and open a 2nd front if need and have the political power to convince them.
     
    Golden_Rule and Hellfire like this.
  13. arbit

    arbit 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    They are the waiting kind, don't assume any decision has been made either way or even it has been, to be revealed to us in a matter of weeks. I have a feeling we might be for a long haul in this one.
     
  14. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    The 1987 Stand off lasted for Six months

    And add to that Indian Army was ALSO involved in another stand off with
    Pakistan at the same time

    Operation Brass tacks with Pakistan and Operation Falcon with China
    done by the Legendary General Sundarji

    We owe a lot to him ; today at least we have something to discuss about
    How we stared down Both our enemies

    It was the era of cold war And USA was totally Pro Pak
     
    Lion of Rajputana and sangos like this.
  15. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Of course the Chinese will not and expect us to still believe they are 10 feet tall. They are baffled that we have suddenly cut their height by half, which is still generous.
    Please cite any differences between the military and political leadership in the present situation to enlighten those like me. Admit have failed to notice any between the 'aggressive soldier' and the 'diplomatic (ruling)politician'



    Our reaction was a HUGE surprise for the enemy. Well we are not killing them all as yet. The crux of the matter now is to save face. We caught them stealing and are calling them for it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
    Golden_Rule likes this.

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