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Debate: - Make In India in Defence Sector - Is it Real or just a Hype?

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by PARIKRAMA, Apr 5, 2017.

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Make In India in Defence Sector - Is it Real or just a Hype?

  1. Its Real and India is serious

    4 vote(s)
    7.1%
  2. Its just a Hype

    13 vote(s)
    23.2%
  3. We are working on it and results will take time ..

    39 vote(s)
    69.6%
  1. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    May 2017 will see 3 years of BJP government coming to power. Yet we are not seeing the finalization of certain policies pertaining to defence procurement. The master piece being MII or Make In India campaign.

    What should have been poster deal under this like MMRCA now cancelled or say a new P75I or say C295 deals of larger size or M777 bigger deal or 16 S70B RSH deal versus a huge requirement, most of it are not either not concluded or are deals done with almost negligible MII works..

    Take an example.. 36 Rafale Flyaway has offsets and offsets enables DRAL to make parts for Rafale but subsequently there is no progress for Rafale MII order

    Take another example .. There is no new order of P75I or P76 and we all know we also need a lot bigger number of DE subs.. P75 follow on order also not given as of now.


    Consider the latest news.. S400 deal had a 30% offset concept and now its waiver is given by DAC.

    Fine the Strategic Partnership Model is not yet finalised but where is the real honest movement in MII?

    Will this term entirely be used to just say a paper on Strategic Partnership was finalised and DPP was made up?

    is MII real or hype? Are we serious about MII in Defence Sector?
     
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  2. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    You cannot make a MIC on back of imported weapons. Without own designs, MII is just a job generating scheme.
     
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  3. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Result will takes time .
    Until 2008 ,our indigenous were revolving around Agni series and few other missiles .
    Only after that we have seen a serious initiative from GoI ,precisely after 26/11 ,were shortcomings exposed.

    At current pace , around 2035 we will have our own exporting capable MIC
     
  4. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    excellent words.. that is what many will agree as well..

    But how many MII projects are actually approved and jobs getting created as of say today or even say uptill May 2017?

    Is this not just a hype that MII will make Indian MIC empowered to make better things and youth will be empowered with skill sets and new jobs?

    Very good point..a long term game.. So when this gestation period will end for things to actually start rolling for real?

    I mean which project of mega size approved, which say will begin say 20xx year and generate jobs like say xxxx numbers under say a flagship MII deal?

    We kept on hearing big deals and names / numbers.. But which one is really a MII deal worth mentioning?
     
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  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    For Rafale MII, my point of view is that the proposition is ready but Dassault is waiting for the Strategic Partnership Model to send it to GOI. Because the Dassault policy is that once a proposal is submitted it is not possible to change it or you lose your credibility. We can only adapt it if the customer changes his request. So Dassault want to finalise its proposal after reading Strategic Partnership Model.
     
  6. Naagraj

    Naagraj 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Hype...
     
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  7. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    The whole Idea of MII or Make In India not only for weapons manufacturing or any other product manufacturing is going to be big failure. There are several reasons for it, I am listing here a few below:

    1) Labor laws, no hire & fire rules so you are stuck with inefficient laborers. Union leaders keep blackmailing of lock out/strike if their demands are not met.

    2) Local politicians, MLAs, MPs, Corporators, Gram Sarpanch, and Govt employees & bureaucrats keep asking for money for party funds, bribes to provide water electricity, etc.

    3) Local Goons asking for money on various festivals and protection money.

    4) Land costs are prohibitively high and it is equally difficult to acquire.

    5) Loan costs too are high as compared to China, USA, Japan, & Europe.

    6) Corruption in Armed Forces who have tendency to buy imported weapons.

    7) Lower R & D allocation

    8) Lack of Higher Education especially Engineering courses related to Aeronautics & weapons development.

    There may be more bottlenecks and until and unless all these are removed MII won't TAKE OFF.
     
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  8. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    India was basically importing tech mostly for the better part their economic uprise.

    There was no means created for development and R&D. The 2 major PSU's of defense sector were in shambles, delivery for the investments was meager.

    This Current government are trying a very good process. Provide the means for development and R&D, Opening up to foreign collaboration so that the cost of R&D can be reduced and India can catch-up quicker.

    Cost of R&D makes the major part of the costing in development of any weapons platform.
    It will take India time if not even couple of years more as they have to fill up the current deficiency atleast at a minimal levels so that they hold the advantage and then concentrate on Development of the Industry than filling up the deficiency.

    Development will envision a healthy future for defense technology.

    Still feels like India has to invest more in R&D in local defense sector than going for a quick fix off-shelf purchases.

    Three Year gone by improvements are coming in but the pace of improvements is, feels like not enough.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
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  9. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Lets us see some facts.

    - Light utility chopper tenders canlced in fovor of Make in India and KA 26 is coming to India for Make in India.

    _ Imported trainer Palitus deal canceled in favor of HTT 40
    -LUH took its first flight and crossed 200 KMPH speed.

    - K9 Vajra deal finalized for make i India.

    - Dhnush, TATA gun, 52 caliber advanced towed artillery gun is getting ready. BABA kalyani 52 caliber gun is ready so as its ultra light Howitzer. No import now.
    - Lockheed, Boeing , Saab has offered to make their best planes in India under Make in India.
    - LCH has got IOC and ready for mass production.
    - Dhruv order is almost on the verge of conclusion.
    - Medium weight chopper is under design and planned to be exported to 40 countries.
    - Astra production has begun and planned to be exported to many nations.
    - SU 30 MKI indian versions are made in India and they are just 1 year away to complete 272 order.
    - Brahmos Integrated with MKI.
    - T72 upgraded with 1000 HP engine , Make in India ERA and other stuff.
    _ Arjun Mk2 is all set to loose weight with light weight and high strength steel.
    -Plane designed by India engineer is about to fly in Maharashtra.
    - SARAS is all set to fly with all modifications.
    - HAL Turboprop engine is in testing and generating design power.
    - HAWK trainer was improved and produced in India with better design and better features.
    - Kaveri is getting ready. Almost all issues resolved except noise problem.
    - Private companies are coming up with many small turbines.
    _ baba kalyani turbine engine is also getting ready.
    - Nirbhay engine is also getting ready.
    -Uttam is ready for Integration in LCA.


    Now how can there be any question on make i India.
     
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  10. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    In defence sector exclusively, its all lies.

    We have been doing "Make in India " with Migs since decades now.
     
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  11. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Until now Govt. employees, Bureaucrats, Baboons, Defence forces, etc. all were involved in corruption or "ooper ki Kamai" and it is very difficult to change this mindset, so pace will remain slow. If faster pace has to implemented then Modi would have to declare state of emergency (which by the way is required for at least next 10 years) just like Indira Gandhi did but it will come with Modi's downfall.

    Only problem is if BJP (Modi) loses in 2019 all these people will revert to their earlier habit and corrupt practices.
     
  12. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes, but subsequent to Make in India vision, Things are happening at a much rapid pace.
     
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  13. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Rapid pace?
    Examples please ...
    Since this government , things have only slowed down much more in defence except the Rafale deal.
     
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  14. Himanshu Pandey

    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

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    just like a US president to fulfill all his promises and ensure their policy accepted and done.. Modi too need 2nd term.

    apart from that as much as I understand.. the very training to our government officials is about delaying the things and let the solution emerge by itself.. to make something in India which was getting procured from good foreign friend.. is a new concept and it will take time for these babus to understand and consume it... and then there is great Indian army and Air force... who are very keen to buy half-baked goods from foreign and force government to put up cost in their development rather then doing same for an Indian product..
    'the story of LCA and the lust for f-16 is well know.. so it getting a medium tank like T-90 rather then a full MBT like arjun even when it was Arjun which won every time.

    same has happened with BHIM gun, several newer assault rifles, Abhav IFV.. the list is endless.. even Akash has to fight with several others to be a part of SAM defence.

    this has not gained a success not because there were not products or companies to make them.. but because of unwillingness of User and procurer to go for Indian products.

    in any other major power sending a half equipped soldier in war will be considered treason and the commander, general and person related to it will be court marshaled and jailed.. here it is used as an excuse to get some good foreign equipment..

    the picture is too complex and yes DRDO and other has failed in fulfilling the timeline but even USA which is pioneer in weapon R &D and has experience in making F-22 is struggling with F-35.
    it will be an essay or a book if I go into all of it.. which will kill most of you with boredom.. so in short.. the make in India is happening but not at the speed it should be because of unwillingness and untrained approach of government officials from all the departments.'
     
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  15. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Irrelevant.

    (1) MIC need highly skilled employees. Labour laws are less of a problem in MII Rafael than in MII Apple. On top of it GoI is trying to bypass labour laws by delegating their reforms to state thus making them compete with each other. Other device that government is using to promote manufacturing is SEZs where labour laws are different.

    (2)Not a problem even remotely. That is a problem in thekedar model on which PWDs use to work, or in infrastructure where local material has to be sourced. With big companies ,it is not. They ,if deal in bribery/political funding is done, it is done voluntarily, over the table, and on centralized scale. I remember a story that I heared when I was in school. During Vajpayee's govt, a highway was being constructed using JICA's funding. A local SP politician sticking to time honored tradition of extorting from thekedars in PWD works demanded that the company pay him money, else he would get work stopped. The comapny ,rather than paying, stopped working and complained to Vajpayee. Next day home ministry calls that SP MLA that they would let CBI loose og him and throw him in jail, if he try to extort anything from that project. After that, he never bothered that project.

    (3) Not a problem in case of int'l manufacturing,let alone MII for MIC. States compete with each other to attract manufacturing. They provid epolice protection to major manufacturing entities. If anyone is paying local goons money, it is a company decision to buy goodwill. Unlike small business, who have to fess up as they do not have political muscle, companies have a choice in this manner.

    (4) Land is provided free for major projects.


    This is true.

    Even if we assume Armed forces are corrupt, why would they be against buying from private MIC? A private Indian MIC would be able to provide them with post retirement high paying consulting jobs which means that they would be earning white money until their bodies start falling off.

    This is the biggest problem. Without R&D allocation, MII would become assemble in India.

    This is bullshit thrown by private companies who do not want to provide competitive wages to students. In India, students who get 700 rank in GATE could not get a job. This, while anyone getting four digit rank in GATE is a good enough engineer that he/she knows nearly everything about his subject.

    Specialized courses like Aeronautics and weapon dev may have less candidates, but core engg disciplines like Mech, E&C, Electt, and CS could easily do job of these with little training. All basic concepts of Aeronautics are taught in core disciplines.
     

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