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Debate: - Make In India in Defence Sector - Is it Real or just a Hype?

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by PARIKRAMA, Apr 5, 2017.

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Make In India in Defence Sector - Is it Real or just a Hype?

  1. Its Real and India is serious

    4 vote(s)
    7.1%
  2. Its just a Hype

    13 vote(s)
    23.2%
  3. We are working on it and results will take time ..

    39 vote(s)
    69.6%
  1. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    ₹50,000-crore defence projects stuck on lack of strategic partnerships

    NEW DELHI, APRIL 5:
    The decision on whether to introduce the crucial chapter on ‘Strategic Partnerships’ into the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2016 will be taken once the ongoing Parliament session ends on April 12.

    “We are at a very advanced stage. Once the session is over, it will happen,” Minister for Finance, Defence and Corporate Affairs Arun Jaitley, had said recently at the ‘Breakfast with BusinessLine’ meet.

    The SP model is aimed at boosting manufacture of defence items through big-ticket contracts within the private sector. It is largely divided into segments – submarines, combat aircraft, warships and helicopters, and armoured vehicles. The idea is to enlist private sector defence companies in each of the segments as strategic partners for long-term contracts. Meanwhile, there is buzz that the Prime Minister will reshuffle the Cabinet once this Parliament session gets over and a full-time Defence Minister will be appointed, who will take a call on the issue, said sources.

    Aatre panel
    The VK Aatre Committee, set up by the Defence Ministry to formulate the Strategic Partnership (SP) model, had presented its report in April 2016, in which it had suggested one or two SPs for each segment.

    This was seen as restricting the role of private Indian defence firms that had objected to the SP model, which was being reviewed by former Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. However, after Parikkar’s exit from the Ministry, the proposal is being reviewed once again under pressure from the domestic industry.

    It is learnt that projects worth ₹50,000 crore are stuck in the absence of the SP chapter. Foreign OEMs have already made it clear that without this chapter, they are unable to form joint ventures with Indian defence firms and there has been a dearth of large-scale defence projects.

    “We are eagerly looking forward to the SP model. We are waiting for the guidelines to be issued and the selection of SP to be implemented by the government. DCNS is constantly having its dialogue with the Indian Navy for future warships and submarines to provide the Navy with the most suitable solution to meet its operational requirements,” said Bernard Buisson, MD, DCNS India.

    Foreign players have so far stayed away from the foreign direct investment route even though the government has allowed 100 per cent foreign investment.

    The idea of selecting SPs and granting preferential treatment to private sector defence players was mooted by the Dhirendra Singh Committee that was formed to design the new DPP. Later the Ministry constituted the Aatre Committee.

    “Foreign players can also come under the FDI route since 100 per cent is now being allowed. But it is also true that the SP chapter will bring in some clarity. Selection of private players and how the programmes will be selected remains a question. The guidelines suggested by the task force were not formulated in the right spirit,” said Laxman K Behera, fellow at the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses.

    (This article was published on April 5, 2017)
     
  2. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    Very much true, This govt. needs to continue was couple more sessions ( + 2 x 5 years), else all the good done now would be enjoyed by next govt. and if they dont follow the visions then India will keep lagging.

    I would say Invest more on R&D which incorporates more of Indian toppers and pay them well and give them a target. Results will show in couple of years.
    US is not topping in tech because they have genius brains, yes they have brains to put together these geniuses from various countries (predominantly India) pay them well and their ingenuity is what US is now.
     
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  3. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Give me a reference of Planned 300 Aircraft.
    Absolutely wrong. All LCA's will be capable of war. Point out why 40 will not be capable of war.

    How it is not due to negligence of of 10 years of Congres rule and how it is because of BJP rule? Pl explain.
     
  4. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    14 Squadrons, 294 LCA , remember the statement ?

    The first 40 will not be , because they are not MK1A, the variant which IAF has considered. And untill the remaining 40 are upgraded to the MK1A level, no hope for them .

    Nowhere did I say , no fault of congress.

    I said both 10 years of congress and ~3 years ofBJP combined with HAL is the reason.
     
  5. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Are the limitations of FOC based inherently on the design of the system or the production of the system?

    Engine ratings : ADA or HAL?
    AESA Radar: ADA or HAL?
    Missile Systems : ADA or HAL?
    AOA, RWR, MAWS, Sensor Fusion : : ADA or HAL?
    Please point to me which of the production limitations of HAL is hampering the FOC of the system.

    If HAL is the root cause of delays for the champion design package of ADA, shouldn't HAL should have come across the same issues with Mig21's, Mig27's, SU30mki's, Jaguars, AJT's, Dorniers 228's, for achieving launch containment which btw we delivered before schedule. Please do educate me.
     
  6. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    You do realise that BJP especially Parrikar saved the LCA Tejas from certain disaster

    The IAF 's views were that

    LCA Mk 1 is OK but not enough and LCA Mk 2 is very far away

    Making the IAF agree to accepting the The MK 1 A is what has saved this program

    The IAF when it realised that the PM and DM are dead serious about Tejas
    had to quietly fall in line

    The delays in FOC should not bother us much given that
    The Mk 1 A is the real beneficiary of these Extended Developmental Trials of MK 1

    All the work being done on the The Mk 1 will be automatically absorbed by the MK1 A
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
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  7. sherin616

    sherin616 FULL MEMBER

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    I have another plan against make in india
    What if instead of Centerlizing r and d to drdo
    We Subsidise it to iits and other tech collages
    Successful inventions will then converted to a company
    With loyalty divided as
    50%=for the company created
    25%=collage
    25%= to govt
    there will be a commity with
    political members of current govt
    retired scientists from isro drdo and other major govt owned r and d sectores
    retired military personnels to monitor the profects


    there will be more company instead of few controlling defence sector and we can stop good brains going abroad
     
  8. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    By design , and the plans [if it were followed ] , LCA is at no fault. ADA has done a fine job.

    I point the fault more at HAL than other development agencies,because it's their " chalta hai" , "we are government employees " , "dekha jaayega", etc attitude which has dearly costed the LCA project.

    If a development lab gives it a try, and still the result is a failure, that's not a big thing.

    But a nodal agency almost sleeping since 16 years [yes sleeping now too] is what is costing the LCA its future.

    PS: A question , remember at the end of last year , HAL said we will deliver "4 more SP " aircrafts by the end of this FY. I don't see SP5 flying...
     
  9. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    1. I appreciate MoD for the order of 83. But I also criticise MP and the PM, both of not doing enough. And the " not doing enough " part, a lot of things were straightforward easy task, which they didn't do.

    Coming to IAF , IAF was always satisfied with MK1 , till it got a hugely delayed IOC2. It was then that the continuity of delays affected their top brass. You see, if MK1 was ready for IAF in 2012, they would have easily taken it for what it was. But unlike the citizens of India who believed HALs words for their quick FOC , IAF knew its not coming sooner. And the delay was almost a decade.

    You know a fighter jet usually needs a MLU within a decade , to keep itself updated. IAF therefore asked and said clearly they need much more than MK1 if they were going to get the aircraft a decade later.

    And no benefit of MK1A and LCA is not more important that IAF having a fighter jet , "operational " , in numbers to do their tasks.

    And I stick to my this point. There is still a chance. The Government should force HAL to give on unconditional ToT and a Production Line and accept a Private Consortium as a partner in Development of LCA without any if and buts. The ATAGS model is what is required. Without it. Mark my words , you will see 2 squadrons of Rafales first , than 1 squadron of MK1A [Fully functional with the capabilities promised].
     
  10. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    but you did not answer the simple question.

    Is the FOC pending due to inherent design issues or due to not delivering the "4 more SP "?


    Yupp fine design job indeed.
    No Engine, No Avionics, No radar. By ADA's standard HAL should handover 4 SP aiframe's to IAF and ask IAF to stick the engine and radar and wiring harnesses themselves. If that would constitute as a "Fine Job" :)
     
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  11. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    The FOC is pending due to HALs inability to get the ticks done .

    Engine , Radar and avionics for IOC2 and MK1 are already there.
     
  12. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    And what are those?
     
  13. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    1. Integration and certification of Canon [which is already produced under licence by OFB]

    2. Certification of new Radome [Already delivered quite a long time ago]

    3. Testing and certification of IFR

    4. Certification of Derby BVR [And now ASRAAM too]

    5. Testing and certification of Kh35 Air Launched Missile.

    6. Testing and addition of weapons like DRDO ARM, Kh59 ,Kh31 , etc . [It was claimed in the Boucher of LCA/HAL in Aero India , to be available in MK1 version, but no tests yet]
     
  14. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    >Have been integrating 30mm and 20mm cannons into airframes since 1950.

    > Have built radomes for all aircrafts built without any issues.

    > Have been integrating IFR's on MKI since day1

    >Qualifies Derby on MKI, and every missile on MKI, Mig21's, Mig29M, Mig27, Mig23.

    So the question is what makes LCA special? How is it that Irkut, BAE, Mikoyan designs are integrated with ease, even the systems like ALH and Rudra get through with flying colors, What holds back LCA.

    None of these seem to be production issues to me. To me all of this non-sense points back to ADA. Sorry!
     
  15. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    But withdrawal of that case resulted in clearing the path of acquisition and reaching this stage. What about the silly act of inquiring a small issue for 10 years without any result at the cost of security of a big naval assets.
    Barak 1 may be signed later but integration of MR SAM has already started which is capable of doing everything that Barak 1 does so Barak 1 deployment is just a cost saving exercise as we may not have to use costly MRSAM where Barak 1 can do the job. Security of warships are not compromised.
     

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