Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Debate- What should India do in lieu of USA Goodies?

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 17, 2017.

Tags:
  1. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    8,059
    Country Flag:
    India
    It has been some time since talks about a far deeper India USA coalition is on works.

    Consider a possible scenario

    USA Gives
    1. Full localisation of F16s to TASL under MII
    2. Access to F35s as and when required on priority basis
    3. Access to Avenger Jet powered Drones and a plan to set up a MII unit associated with say TASL
    4. Access to different systems and munitions
    5. Technology access (and shared limited) in all other fields military or dual use
    6. Geo Political push for every Indian story

    In Return USA Wants
    1. Joint patrolling in South China Sea
    2. Joint patrolling in IOR
    3. Full Access to A&N for a base and assault unit
    4. Parking of USA planes in one of the land bases for assaults against WAR on Terror
    5. Joint action against North Korea
    6. Committing a large force for Afghanistan and having a military pact with Afghanistan
    7. Drone strike from Avengers and Predators given to India on terror camps

    So what should India do?
    Should we accept such a possible scenario , extract say $10 Mn cheaper per unit costlier goods like a fighter plane and go for it?

    Should we go with what USA wants in return as well.

    This debate is about opinions.. Its not about proximity to say Russian camp or USA camp.. Let us analyse it factually and see does doing all this and many more make sense for our nation or not.


    Open for all now.

    @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 001 @nair @Agent_47 @Picard @Picdelamirand-oil @vstol jockey @Gessler @randomradio @MilSpec @BON PLAN @CNL-PN-AA @Robinhood Pandey @Levina @Hellfire @GuardianRED @halloweene @IAF Fan @kaku @ashkum2278 @Nilgiri @Sancho @X_Killer @Angel Eyes @lca-fan @Vyom @all others
     
  2. Jamy

    Jamy FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    26
    Country Flag:
    India
    Since the US requirement entitles specifically this, which actually is extreme sidelining and dangerous than others, the Indian list should contain "Joint action against Pakistan" with something concrete like
    "Hunting down Specific Terrorists/Fugitives"
    "Bangladesh-2"
    To be precise if NK and Pak are weakened and Modi carefully retaining Putin on our side atleast against Pak, it is game over for Chinks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  3. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    1,387
    Likes Received:
    1,929
    Country Flag:
    United States
    I have some reservations about points 3,4 and 6. In the case of points 3 and 4, what would be the extent of US deployment on Indian soil, and is reciprocal access being offered to relevant bases like Diego Garcia and Camp Lemonnier?

    Regarding point 6; I believe in following the modern US model here. I would be happy to provide SF operators, intelligence agents, and even air support assets (which can be called in by the Afghans/embedded SF elements as needed). But putting boots on the ground, en masse, in Afghanistan; is an incredibly slippery slope.
     
    Blackjay likes this.
  4. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    2,597
    Likes Received:
    4,871
    Country Flag:
    India
    There are things we have already partially agreed to with respect to India s "Security " role in Afghanistan.
    Although commuting a large force seems idiotic, certain very subtle messages, if made public, are enough to change our perception.

    Be ready to see Australia in the next Malabar and a Tri Nation Patrol force + USN ensuring " Free Navigation ". The good thing here for India, unlike in Afghanistan , that Russia won't be unhappy....

    Another thing you should expect is a US Armed Forces "Cargo, Logistics and Repair " station on Indian Mainland soon.

    I won't say if these things should happen or not... I would only say, the intended goal of NSA , if fulfilled will change a lot of things in a big way.
     
    Lion of Rajputana and Blackjay like this.
  5. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    387
    Country Flag:
    Canada
    joint action against nk seems unrealistic.

    more of a japan, sk, and usa thing
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
    Blackjay likes this.
  6. ReddyMan

    ReddyMan FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    83
    Country Flag:
    India
    Why is the F16 so important? IAF doesn't even really want it. Privatize HAL, commit to Rafale MII, and then let TATA build something else like transports or Drones.
    USA will sell F35s anyway, just watch. They are far too greedy not to offer it to India ~2025, regardless of whether or not F16 gets selected.
    Okay, this is great.
    How is this even relevant? Everyone under the sun is offering India 'systems and munitions.' French and Russians are even willing to integrate Indian weapons like Astra AAM. Will Americans ever offer the same? Probably not.
    See above.
    American Media is FAR too deeply seated in Indophobia to ever change. Americans deserve to be allies with nations like Saudia Arabia and Pakistan. Also confirms that US media is under the thumb of the state department and pay-to-play. So they will change on a dime when India 'stops paying.'

    Fine.
    Why? Tell them to **** off, IOR is India's backyard. It's in the goddamn name.
    See above.
    Why? It will never be cheaper to fly from India to Afghan-pakistani border, than just to fly from pakistani bases.
    Fine.
    This is the big one, everything else is small-fry. US wants to dump the geopolitical mess that they created in Afghanistan on India. Tell them to **** off, this is a terrible idea. India will spend +5 decades trying to fix the mess, while US continues to supply and support the same Sunni extremist nations and groups that support the Taliban. And at the end of this fabulous journey, India will just get another Bangladeshi-style nation that will be against India after we sacrificed so much for them.
    India should do this irregardless.
    India has this atrocious habit of this bhai-bhai crap with nations that conspire against it or are in decline. China, Soviets, and now US.

    India needs to maintain independence and partner with nations where it is either an equal or greater partner. An equal partnership will never be possible with US. Wait until they have fully declined (~2 decades) then let them be a lesser partner to India.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  7. Techy

    Techy Zonked Developer Developers -IT and R&D

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    77
    Country Flag:
    India
    What USA wants:
    Can be done to a certain extent but not under full flagship of USA.
    This is a strong no-no option. IOR is our backyard and we don't need USN here.
    Again this shouldn't be accepted at all.
    We can give then a forward base in Punjab/Hariyana/ Kashmir area just to annoy Pak as this would benefit us in longer run if the Target includes camps of POK. Also it would force Pak to change their rhetoric of Tactical or other nuke threats as one of their target area would have USA base :D
    Does they want India to carry out strikes on their behalf with these drones in POK and Afghanistan? if yes then what about Pak trying to shoot them down?

    Benefits in return of above compromise:

    This would be beneficial for us but again it depends upon costs associated with it. We can't accept all of their demands so we shall see how government negotiates with USA.
    This is definitely a sweetener for India to agree to be their puppet but we will have to evaluate our threat perception based on Chinese prism and then arrive to a decision.

    F-35 is a good option if we go for assault ships or LHD/LPDs based on Juan Carlos class where we can place 4-6 F-35Bs on those ships and turn them into a deadly platform especially in western theater. F-35s would increase potency of IAC-1 and Viki by allowing to maintain a High-Low mix of F-35 and Mig-29Ks and hence allowing more flexibility in their deployment.
     
    Ved Mishra and Blackjay like this.
  8. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    8,265
    Likes Received:
    6,242
    Country Flag:
    France
    The US wants to put you in shit and give you ways to solve 10% of the crap where they put you.
     
  9. Blackjay

    Blackjay Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Messages:
    446
    Likes Received:
    853
    Country Flag:
    India
    LOL.
    That is a brilliant suggestion.
    :award:
     
    Shekhar Singh, Techy and Ved Mishra like this.
  10. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,742
    Likes Received:
    9,638
    Country Flag:
    India
    First of all bro - are we even sure the US is willing to give full localization of F16 line? IMO, most of the critical techs will not be shared and will have to be procured directly from US...only final assembly takes place in India under Tata's control.

    A role for the F35 first has to be defined within IAF's force-structure. I don't see it happening. At least not unless we cancel all plans for AMCA - correct me if I'm wrong about this one.

    Is procuring the F35 feasible only for naval applications? C for EMALS operation from Vishaal/future CATOBAR carriers and B possibly from the LHDs? As far as B goes...I think a lot will depend on how India's maritime infantry plans to develop in the future. I have heard of the plans to turn SPB into a Marine Corps-type force. But all that is decades away.

    I have to ask - is this even necessary? I'm ok with the Guardian-ER sale for the near future but post-2020, I think it should be very feasible to develop indigenous jet-powered HALE UAVs/UCAVs. We already made several turbofan engines suitable for this role...the airframe can be developed further from existing Rustom-II design or a new design.

    Interesting - but details needed. :rolleyes:

    These two I like.

    I hope we reach firm agreements wrt extending the SOSUS-Fish Hook line and jointly building a defense against Chinese submarines in the IOR - which threatens both Indian & US bases.

    Done. We lose nothing in either of these endeavours. As of SCS, China needs to know that if they're gonna keep up patrolling into IOR in India's backyard using Pakistan and Sri Lanka as anchor-points - India will do the same in SCS using Japan, Vietnam & US support as anchor-points. Once we get the SSNs rolling - there need to be annual patrols into SCS. Imagine the Chinese horror when Indian nuclear subs dock in SE Asian ports.

    Posturing to China aside, the IN too needs to get all the joint working & patrolling experience it can get it's hands on. I've always thought IN punched far below it's weight in international naval matters, mostly because we choose to work alone in a lot of issues such as anti-piracy missions etc. And joint patrolling with USN and other NATO navies could be one way of alleviating that and projecting a more prominent image of the IN within the IOR.

    Hmm. Interesting. Gotta admit the A&N islands are strategically well-positioned - any naval/air asset based there would be within striking range of the Malacca Straits, the choke-point for much of China's sea-borne trade. It's no wonder the US wants access to basing facilities on these islands. I say, let's give it to them. As long as they don't hinder our own operations from that location.

    So they want a feasible back-up location for continuing attacks on WOT targets in case relations with Pakistan sour further and US is required to evacuate from pakistani bases. They sure as hell can't operate from the Iranian side, and striking up deals with heavily Russia/China-leaning CARs might not be to their liking...so India is the next option.

    A limited basing option won't hurt - but I'd want local intel agencies to keep a close eye on activities in & out of that base because you can bet your a$$ they'll be using it to spy on us to some extent. Spying from space-based assets is one thing (largely unavoidable), but using our own territory to spy on us is another.

    I know you said there's no need to discuss proximity to Russia camp in this thread, but I must say that basing of US forces in the country MIGHT take a huge hit wrt relations with Russia, but I don't know to what extent. If we're smart, we'd have to first get Russia on the table wrt WOT and work together to iron out any issues they might have with US base in India.

    However it can't be forgotten that even if the base is in India - they will be required to fly over pakistani airspace (disputed at best) to reach WOT targets in Afg. Which could be grounds for securing PoK (but that's another issue altogether).

    Joint action in what regard? Economic isolation? Diplomatic cornering? Military - they want us to throw an Agni missile on NK? :flame:Again - details needed.

    This. This has the potential to turn into a massive clusterfcuk if not properly thought-out and managed. If they want us to operate alongside US forces and swell the ISAF-aligned numbers because the US might find it problematic to commit enough troops to the cause? Maybe. But if they want to dump the whole Afg. operation on our head and make a quick getaway? :no: Any Indian boots-on-the-ground in Afghanistan should NOT be provided as long as US does not guarantee support in first solving the Pakistan problem for us - then we can think about solving the Afghan problem.

    Don't forget that back during the second Gulf War, the Bush administration, via then-Ambassador Robert Blackwill, had made some fervent attempts to get India to commit a large number of troops to the cause. With the requested 20,000-strong force, we would have been the second-largest allied contingent in Iraq if we agreed. But thankfully - Atal Bihari said no. Probably because they were asking too much, for too less in return. Something I think they're doing again now.

    https://thewire.in/50028/india-nearly-gave-us-pressure-join-iraq-war/

    Afghan war is the big fish. They shouldn't get anything from us wrt that until and unless the pakistani problem is solved first.

    Either way, I can't help but think the US sees Indian Army as nothing but a huge, untapped human resource which can be put to use for their cause if they make nice with us a bit. Like we're a big PMC Guns-for-Hire organization or something.

    Big NOPE there.

    Yeah - that sounds good. But well, that's a temporary solution for what is now a more or less permanent problem. We took out cross-border strikes with SOFs which are far more precise and targeted, but what's the use? The pakistani Islamist machine will find new youths to brainwash for the Jihadi cause and replace their numbers in not so long a time.
     
  11. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    1,200
    Country Flag:
    India
    India should do but with Japan, Australia & US
    Its not necessary but partially agreed
    No permanent bases should be provided to US.
    LEMOA must be the max.
    Might be allowed for temporary basis.
    No need to allow US jets as permanent postings.
    No requirement in any scenario.
    We should not allow our troop deployment in Afghanistan but we should give all kind of support to Afghanistan.
    Partially agreed.
    US will never share full scale critical technologies. If they agreed to do so than I can bet that it must be done in dreams.

    More accurate speculations will be done if we have crystal clear scenarios....
     
    Blackjay and Dagger like this.
  12. Zer0reZ

    Zer0reZ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    288
    Country Flag:
    India
    USA Gives

    1. If IAF want F-16 and they giving us significant ToT
    2. Could hinder AMCA & Russia's interest
    3. Aren't we already working on it? I mean there are talks for us buying 100 of them, so yeah
    4 & 5. Should work both ways
    6. Its all just in air they talk too much rather applying it. We want results to be on our side.


    USA Wants

    1. Not with US, Vietnam; Japan etc would do
    2. No
    3. No
    4. Limited & yes, if we're getting more drones
    5. If Japan or SK want it, we shouldn't care what US want regarding this.
    6. India-US-Afghan trilateral agreement would be decent but in my opinion Trump wants to run away from there. Also sanctions on Iran hurtin Chabahar leading China investing heavily on Iran. So India-US should come up with a solution for this.
    7. if we bought drones then its likely to happen.
     
  13. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    8,265
    Likes Received:
    6,242
    Country Flag:
    France
    It is in India's interest to keep as far away from war as possible and to strengthen its capacities in this area during these years of peace. Why precipitate things?
     
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,180
    Likes Received:
    6,293
    They are giving worthless trinkets and demanding too much.

    Give full access to their latest nuke subs and missile technologies. Give full access to their intelligence technologies. Give full access to their military decision chain and make us an equal partner. Then we can talk about all that other crap.

    F-16 and Avengers are temporary stuff. We will be building equivalents or better soon enough anyway.
     
  15. Scotlander

    Scotlander Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2017
    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Country Flag:
    India
    India should try to become 'self-sufficient' when it comes to taking care of Defence Matter - Lie, Cheat & steal like chinese does.

    It shouldn't next Pakistan of Uncle Sam. Our Soilders are not Canon Fodder
     
    Angel Eyes likes this.

Share This Page