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Doklam Plateau - India, Bhutan and China Stand-Off

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by Bloom 17, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    A lizard changes colours, Elephant does not. An Elephant can pick up a coin by its tusks while a lizard can't. I will be the last person to believe these guys. They will withdraw today to come back and fight with us after 3-5 yrs with their dog called Pakistan.
     
  2. Satendra kumar

    Satendra kumar FULL MEMBER

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    The Doklam Plateau border standoff should be addressed within the framework of United Nations Convention of International Border Protocols.The Tri-angular borders between India,Bhutan and China should be resolved within the treaty of United Nations.Disputed areas are still within the procedures and regulations of United Nations.These border issues should be resolved peacefully without any loss of life's as war is not an option moral behaviour and maintaning peace in these areas is first priority.
     
  3. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    On SCS, the International Arbitration Tribunal gave a ruling against China and they have refused to accept it. Now what makes you think that they will agree to anything which is internationally acceptable while unacceptable to them?
    India lost its case against Bangladesh in same court and we accepted the verdict. Can you expect same from China?
     
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  4. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    CORRECT

    It is very easy to say war is not an option and sing it 24 hrs. But if someone is hell bent on fighting and gives you blow after blow would you still say so?

    Why did Lord Krishna, Lord Rama, Guru Gobind Singhji Picked weapons? When all options are closed then war is the only option left..... and in China's case it is long due.

    Also it is this type of thinking which has made India lose a lot in territories (Bharat was spread from Afghanistan (Gandhar) to Bali Sumatra named after Bali Sugreev's brother from Ramayan Time). Also in modern times India should have been UN security Member P6 with veto power but for this type of Nehru's (IDIOT'S Desh Drohi) thinking...........
     
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  5. Hatma

    Hatma IDF NewBie

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    That's something engineers would understand or the brigade of engineers...
     
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  7. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Never be afraid to lose, because when time comes, it is the war that drives you and not you who is driving the war.
    The commander is right about both the losing part and the winning one, losing will ensure that we start making our weapons on our own and maybe our forces will stop rejecting self made weapons...
     
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  8. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Irrespective of the outcome, China will lose and India will win. I had written that this battle will be blessing in disguise as Chinese stuff will be shown the doors and our own manufacturing will take off generating millions of jobs. Indian GDP will leap frog as a result. Imagine today our potters are jobless and pulling rickshaws in metros as the earthen lamps they used to make are now being imported from China.
     
  9. Veeran

    Veeran BANNED BANNED

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    I didn't consider that angle :)
    Ofcource, I've already stopped buying anything Chinese (or even western maal; even for my car I bought a Mahindra).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  10. Veeran

    Veeran BANNED BANNED

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    I hear there's so much troop movement from our side and also locals are being moved away.
    Should I tell my dad that a war is a possibility and so sell all shares by 18th??
     
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  11. Veeran

    Veeran BANNED BANNED

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    This is heart breaking.
     
  12. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Villagers Moved Out of Village Near Doklam, Officials Say No Evacuation
    Nathang village is 35 km from the Doklam India-Bhutan-China tri-junction, the site of the two-month old standoff between Indian and Chinese troops.
    Karma Paljor | News18.com[​IMG]Karma_Paljor

    Updated:August 10, 2017, 11:14 PM IST

    New Delhi: Villagers are moving out from a place close to Doklam, though officials in both the government and the Army denied there is any evacuation.

    According to sources, a few hundred villagers living in Nathang village have been asked to vacate their houses immediately. Nathang is 35 km from the site of the two-month old standoff between Indian and Chinese troops.

    It was not immediately clear if an order has been issued to accommodate thousands of soldiers of the 33 Corp, who are reportedly moving from Sukna towards Doklam, or whether it was a precautionary measure to avoid civilian casualties in case of a skirmish.

    A senior army officer said that neither any village has been evacuated nor proposed to be evacuated in Sikkim. Villagers of Nathang, a small village with just a few hundred inhabitants, whom News18 spoke to, though confirmed witnessing heavy troop movement in the area of late.

    According to some reports, the Indian Army has called the troop movement in the area a regular maintenance move. The reports went on to quote army sources as saying that the military is in a 'no war, no peace' mode.

    This, in military parlance, means being in a confrontational position with the enemy.

    The state-controlled Chinese media has in the last few weeks been beating war drums quite incessantly. In a recent editorial published in China Daily, India was warned that “the countdown to a clash between the two forces has begun”.

    The editorial, titled New Delhi should come to its senses while it has time, went on to state that the window to peacefully resolve the standoff in Doklam was closing as the row enters its seventh week.

    “The countdown to a clash between the two forces has begun, and the clock is ticking away the time to what seems to be an inevitable conclusion.”

    This is just one of the several vitriolic articles that have appeared in Chinese news agency Xinhua and their newspaper Global Times, in recent past.

    The face-off between Indian and Chinese troops though is two months old now.

    It started in mid-June in Doklam tri-junction when Indian troops stopped the Chinese army from building a road in the disputed area. China building a road on that site, India feared, would allow Chinese troops to cut India’s access to its northeastern states.

    As per China's claims, it was constructing the road within its own territory.

    Since the standoff, India has constantly batted for a dialogue but China has demanded immediate and unconditional withdrawal of Indian troops before a dialogue or peace process is initiated.
    http://www.news18.com/news/india/in...r-doklam-to-vacate-their-village-1487673.html

    Has shit hit the fan @Hellfire @vstol jockey
     
  13. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Only in media has the proverbial 'shit hit the fan'. We will make same mistakes as 1962, allow media to build a war hysteria on either side and back ourselves into corner. Diplomacy is the only solution.
     
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  14. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Even non-guided shells could hit artillery on reverse slopes as shells could be fired at a very steep arc of 70-80 degree. You do not need Kransopol and Excalibur to do the job,though they could increase accuracy multifold. The problem with MLRS is that ,due to their shape, they could not be fired at a very steep arc (I think they could not be fired at more than 45-50 degree without posing a credible probability of in flight destabilization).This reduces their ability to hit reverse slopes, and this shortcoming could only be overcome in a major way by thrust vectoring. GPS guidance could only provide small correction; because due to kinematic properties of rockets, GPS guided fins could not cause major deviations to trajectory as it would destabilize flight of rocket, apart from limitations of fins at providing major deviations from ballistic path. Fins do not impart energy to rocket, but make it bleed energy in a certain way to increase accuracy at cost of range.


    Also, I have never read rocket batteries being used for hitting artillery/targets shielded by reverse slopes.It could hit them ,theoretically, but only in certain situations where slope is not very steep. Rockets which can hit even well shielded positions are practically tactical BMs, & cost much more than a simple GPS guided rocket (which still is a rocket with the difference that it could fine tune its trajectory by a little).
     
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  15. Som Thomas

    Som Thomas 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Sikkim standoff: China's CPEC itch, India's refusal to join OBOR is driving the Doka La crisis
    The standoff between the armies of India and China in Bhutan's Doka La continues even after more than 45 days. Previously, it was expected that the logjam would be broken diplomatically before the People's Liberation Army's 90th-anniversary celebrations but that did not happen, despite Indian national security adviser Ajit Doval's meeting with his Chinese counterpart as well as with President Xi Jinping.

    Leaders from both the countries have put their reputations at stake and none of the two sides wants to be seen as to have buckled under pressure. Chinese state media has constantly breathed fire after Beijing made the happenings at Doka La public, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi was slated to meet US president Donald Trump in Washington.

    [​IMG]
    Representational image. Reuters

    What is at stake at the site of the Doka La standoff cannot be underestimated. It has as much to do with the future of the global order as it has to do with the six-decade long border tensions between the two Asian giants. Since the time this crisis started, the Chinese have constantly accused India of interfering in their territorial dispute with the tiny Bhutan and, therefore, have asked India to unilaterally withdraw its troops operating on foreign soil.

    In reply, New Delhi has invoked its treaty with Bhutan, whereby India is obliged to come to Bhutan's aid during a security crisis. It has also recalled an understanding reached with Beijing in 2012, that says that any border dispute with a third country affecting both the parties will be solved with each other's consent. Doka La is one such dispute, as Chinese construction activities in there may affect the status quo at the China-India-Bhutan trijunction.

    It is not easy for India to yield to the Chinese demand of unilaterally withdrawing its troops and open threats of military use by the Chinese are only making the situation worse. If India – the Asian giant which is now almost equal to China in terms of population – recedes in the face of military threats, then not just Bhutan but other small Asian countries having territorial disputes with China will quickly surrender before Beijing's belligerence.

    Since the 1962 India-China war, PLA has tested every Indian prime minister who was getting politically strong at home. In 1967, when Indira Gandhi was firmly establishing herself in power, Indian and Chinese troops clashed at the Nathu La mountain pass, which left 190 Indian and 400 Chinese soldiers dead.

    After Rajiv Gandhi came to power with a record parliamentary majority, there was again a standoff at Samdorong Chu in 1986, when the Chinese tried to build a road there. Indians refused to back off and airlifted a whole mountain brigade, deploying troops in an aggressive manner. Finally, the Chinese blinked and the crisis culminated into bilateral talks over the border dispute which have been going on since then without any breakthrough.

    After coming to power with India's first full majority government in three decades, Modi too got a taste of Chinese pressure tactics. As Modi hosted Xi in his home state of Gujarat, a PLA contingent erected camps in Ladakh's Chumar. This could have been a major embarrassment to Modi who, during his election campaign, had strongly criticised soft policies of previous United Progressive Alliance governments towards China and Pakistan. India had to quickly mobilise 4,000 troops before the situation was resolved.

    All these military standoffs between India and China were over border disputes. This time though, the Chinese started to build a road in the Doka La plateau, which is a subject of the Bhutan-China territorial dispute. This road, if constructed, will put a narrow land strip connecting hinterland India with its north-eastern states under hazard of a quick Chinese assault.

    But that is not the only reason Chinese suddenly got this idea. Along with India, Bhutan too boycotted China's One Belt One Road (OBOR) summit held in May in Beijing. This happened after Chinese called upon India to join the OBOR summit, giving up its reservations and strategic narrow-mindedness.

    Indian objections to OBOR relate to its constituent China-Pak Economic Corridor (CPEC), which passes through parts of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Gilgit-Baltistan, regions that are claimed by India. After the Doka La crisis got triggered, Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson again invited India to join OBOR and talked about integrating CPEC with the Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar (BCIM) corridor. Until India remains defiant, linking BCIM with CPEC will be impossible.

    It is an age old principle of geopolitics that a land power tries to gain access to the sea and tries to evolve into a maritime power. China is trying to do that through CPEC, which provides it access to the sea through an alternative route, thus reducing its dependence on the Malacca Strait – through which most of its oil imports pass and which can be easily blockaded by navies of India or the United States.

    But most of the Pakistani territory through which the CPEC passes has Islamist and ethnic separatist insurgencies. Chinese professionals working in Pakistan have been repeatedly targeted by Islamists as well as Baloch separatists. Now, even Sindhi secessionists in Pakistan are starting to target the Chinese.

    Recently, Chinese engineers narrowly escaped an IED blast in Karachi's Bin Qasim, responsibility for which was later claimed by a Sindhi insurgent group called Sindhudesh Liberation Army. There are regular agitations in Gilgit-Baltistan against CPEC as well. In the Punjab province, the Chinese have tried to co-opt Islamist groups like Jaish-e-Mohammad by repeatedly blocking United Nations Security Council sanctions against its chief Maulana Masood Azhar.

    But sooner or later, the possibility of a clash of Chinese with Islamists is very much on the cards as news of restrictions imposed by the Chinese government on Islamic religious practices in Xinjiang continues to pour in Pakistani media. Recently, Associated Press reported on how in a central China city, Communist Party's propaganda officer instigated locals to bury a pig's head at the site of an upcoming mosque to stall its construction.

    A large body of Uighur Muslim separatists continues to find havens in Pakistan and despite the growing Chinese influence, Islamabad has done little to expel them. The prominent Uighur Islamists that were killed in Pakistan died in US drone attacks. Then there is the chronic political instability of Pakistan, where no elected prime minister has ever been able to complete his or her term.

    All this puts many question marks on the ultimate success of CPEC and the Chinese are painfully aware of this. Risks associated with CPEC may have an overall negative impact on OBOR on the whole. That's why China now wants to "synergise" CPEC with BCIM under the umbrella of the belt and road initiative.

    If India allows that, however, Chinese goods will get land access to a market comprising of a population of close to 1.5 billion as well as access to the Bay of Bengal, and thus to the Indian Ocean through major Indian and Bangladeshi ports. China can still gain access to the Bay of Bengal through Myanmar without Indian help but that will not remove the Indian naval threat, but only double it.

    On the other hand, if India joins BCIM, China will get more trade leverage in India, given the weakness of India's manufacturing sector. It will also help in automatically checking the increasing Indian tilt towards the United States, thus dissipating a more palpable future strategic alliance between US, India, Japan and Australia.

    India may not like BCIM to be made part of a framework which has CPEC as its main constituent. From the Indian point of view, joining OBOR will mean an indirect acquiescence to the construction of CPEC over the territory claimed by it and even regularising Pakistani claims.

    Such has been the Chinese eagerness to make India join OBOR that the Chinese Ambassador to India even offered to rename CPEC to address India's concerns. As India has so far refused to oblige, angry Chinese are trying to coerce it into submission to a new Asian order, led by China. Bhutan has been chosen as the theatre because, unlike Nepal and Myanmar, it has so far refused to join OBOR which is no less annoying for the Chinese.

    As India has so far refused to oblige, angry Chinese are trying to coerce it into submission to a new Asian order, led by China. Bhutan has been chosen as the theatre because, unlike Nepal and Myanmar, it has so far refused to join OBOR which is no less annoying for the Chinese.

    Published Date: Aug 10, 2017 01:14 pm | Updated Date: Aug 10, 2017 01:38 pm


    http://www.firstpost.com/india/sikk...or-is-driving-the-doka-la-crisis-3914063.html
     
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