Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Apr 29, 2011.

?

which aircraft do you prefer

  1. RAFALE

    177 vote(s)
    54.1%
  2. TYPHOON

    150 vote(s)
    45.9%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    Repost. Troll attack...
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  2. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    haha and where is the american statement? what did the USAF say? who is claiming equality? yeah the french, the fights according to some reports were of 6 dogfights 2 were win by F-22 0 by Rafale, ah equality yeah equality we have of 6 combats guns only 4 draws, 2 american victories and 0 french victories, in soccer it means the victory was american and who says these claims of course the French.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  3. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    NO boy, 6 combat and only ONE victory and announced during a press conference by the commander of the French detachment, they consider Rafale as EQUAL to F-22 in WVR combat, as for the USAF F-22 pilots they probably did not have much to say this particular day, let's see the creme of USAF Air Supremacy denied 5 times out of 6 by French Mud Movers??? LOL!...

    But obviously considering your level of information (with denial of sources to make your point) one cannot expect you to come back to hearth.

    FACT, the more you write, the more you get your FACTS wrong, you made your point but not the one you tried to make, you're flaming, trolling and the rest, as for FACTS, aerodynamic realities and so fore you're totally OUT of contention.

    French pilots are qualified, you're an amateur with even less knowledge than I thought, the legend here is that your famous TVC increases turn rate and maneuvrability, when in FACT it only compensates for design and aerodynamic deffisciencies and there are tons of evidences online to prove this.
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126212
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126229
    Pitty for you, Gripen and Rafale are way better designs than your favourites...

    Now i'm going to repost my previous one because you are drowning this topic under tons of uneducated flame bates and i want other posters to be able to READ the doc i post, if you don't, including ONERA saying the post-stall maneuvers were evaluated operationally by AdlA pilots EPNER graduates (EPNER - AdlA test flight school) among whom, Jean Camus and Eric Gerard....
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  4. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    Repost: Troll attack.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  5. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    but 0 victories for Rafale hahaha see F-18 can also put the gun sight on F-22

    [​IMG]

    haha Dear french citizens Rafale did not win a single fight, the F-22 won one, but we won hahahaha only one kill we were lucky, that is just crap, the Rafale beat the F-16 6:2, it means then by statistics the F-16 will win one in 18 yeah, the reality is Rafale is not as good, to start you have not even the comments of the Americans, second no victory means defeat, Rafale lost, second those 6 combats had limits are set on some preconditions, the reality is F-22 beats all fourth generation fighters in a very unequal rate of 30:1




    The F-22's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, and the Air Force cite a 30:1 kill ratio between Raptors and their prey. That doesn't equate to one F-22 taking on dozens of enemies; the figure means that for every Raptor shot down, 30 opposing airplanes are expected to be killed. "The F-22 was not built to fight a fair fight," Brenton says.



    Read more: Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots - Popular Mechanics



    Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots - Popular Mechanics
     
  6. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    All French 1/7 pilots doing 90% of A2G are equally good in A2A according to you, when a French Mirage 2000 C pilot, specialized in A2A flying an Emirate A-F Mirage 2000 fights vs F-22, it get a kill during the SAME event, French pilots also flies way less than USN/USAF pilots...

    Enuff said....[​IMG]

    BTW this makes my point, once they know how to counter post-stall maneuvers they can kill TVC aircrafts and F/A-18 is capable of more than 50* AoA...

    French pilots are qualified, you're an amateur with even less knowledge than I thought, the legend here is that your famous TVC increases turn rate and maneuvrability, when in FACT it only compensates for design and aerodynamic deffisciencies and there are tons of evidences online to prove this.
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126212
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126229
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126231
    Pitty for you, Gripen and Rafale are way better designs than your favourites...

    You need spins by the bucket only to make a fool of yourself, keep amusing me, when you're tired being humiliated by your own trolling just let us know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
    1 person likes this.
  7. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    Repost: Troll attack: Danger, attention grabber online:flame:
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    hahaha when Rafale shot down a single F-22? never hahaha never, when did a cobra never a kulbit never where is the american statements of the combats? The americans won the combats that is admitted even by france you did not even claimed a victory but for the french in search of sales boasting of no victory over F-22 is a poor pr exercise
     
  9. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    Who cares your uneducated flaming by now.

    It is CLEAR that you do not have ONE single technical point to make, so when other nationality pilots speaks it's evengelist talks, but French pilots can only do desperate commercial trick for Dassault and once a sudden pilot training and experience doesn't count... LOL!.

    You're certainly good at trolling.

    French pilots are qualified, you're an amateur with even less knowledge than I thought, the legend here is that your famous TVC increases turn rate and maneuvrability, when in FACT it only compensates for design and aerodynamic deffisciencies and there are tons of evidences online to prove this.
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126212
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126229
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126231
    Pitty for you, Gripen and Rafale are way better designs than your favourites...

    Go to bed, because i think learning the realities of aerospace is going to bring a huge desapointment to you...
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  10. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    Repost, troll attack!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  11. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    88
    nuff said ...:lol:

    [​IMG]

    Arabian Aerospace - Raptor rules the desert roost
     
  12. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    Repost: Troll attack = :flame:
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  13. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    F-22 Undefeated at Al Dhafra: 27th FS pilot At the Advanced Tactical Leadership Course at Al Dhafra Air Base, six F-22s apparently faced off against F-16 Block 60s and Mirage 2000-9s, presumably both operated by the United Arab Emirates. If the F-22s also sparred with French Air Force Rafales and Royal Air Force Typhoons, which also participated in the exercise, the pilot does not say. But there were reports last month that the F-22's were withdrawn from such sorties at the last minute.

    In the judgment of this pilot, the F-22s are also now ready for combat duty. Of course, technically, the F-22 has been operational since late 2005, but let's not be picky.

    Thanks to Virginian-Pilot producer Brian Clark for an excellent video
    LiveLeak.com - F-22 Undefeated at Al Dhafra: 27th FS pilot
     
  14. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    Copy/paste no other source and no comparison...

    YOUR level of aerospacial education... Now READ and LEARN. NO French pilot had 3000 h on Rafale in 2009, so it's his word against that of at least two French pilots and the Mirage 2000 kill was NOT part of the exercise it was a French pilot flying an UAE A-F Mirage. DHO!!!....
    Arabian Aerospace? Unsigned article? LOL Dont tell us you didn't notice that John Lake wrote this one?

    Give us a break...
    ATLC : L'interview du commandant de l'escadron de chasse 01.007 Provence !!! - capitaine-romain

    Here are things are reported by a French pilot with comment of one of his subordinate, not yet another "Eastern Smile" article by yet another (John Lake) unknown author....

    btw, this "result" was what he was told by one of his famous un-namable sources on Key Publishing, telling everyone he knew the result as being "as expected".

    Turned out to be a fluke, a little "present" from one member of the industry who didn't appreciate HIM crucifying Peter Collins because of his article on Flight International, what F-I Military Editor called "Character assassination in Pprune".

    Good that fanboys can believe this sort of things at least we can laugh.

    Our sources are SIGNED, NAMED, give Names and RANKS.

    BOUM! One shot, three kills: Mirage 2000 downs F-22 and Eric Gerard saying TVC is not useful in WVR in one sentence. Article signed, interview of one of the French 1/7 Squadron pilot who was there saying he agree with him...

    Got more mediocre source to show us? = Posted on 6 August 2010 in Defence

    WHY would anyone post an article about an outdated event apart for an infamous pseudo journalist specialized in French bashing?

    Let's see; when is the decision on this competition due to be taken?

    Must have a nice BAe/Eurofighter cheque on the account by now, i wish our pilots were that rich.

    LOL! Rafale have better avionics than ANY F-16 block and outmaneuver Mirage 2000 in DRY power, Typical John Lake, but i guess it makes you high, get some level on g LOC to post this sort of garbage...

    This article is a bunch of LIES...

    NO ONE at NATO does a Advanced Tactical Leadership Course without at least being element leader, well above 200 hours on type, the F-22 pilot says "A hundred or so" hours, just a clue....:sarcastic:


    Official arrival date of Rafale at 1/7 = : June 2006.
    Escadron Rafale 1/7 Provence Saint Dizier



    So at the rate they fly, USAF F-22 pilot must have had MORE hours than the French on their aircrafts... Technically, the Rafale has been operational since late 2007, but let's not be picky.

    :sarcastic: Nuff said. Je suis mort de rire...
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  15. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    602
    You have no idea what you are talking about. (Certainly not fluent in FRENCH ether).

    1: YOU decided to make the rules on what information must be valid or NOT.

    2: YOU do not comprehend what stall is.

    3: YOU do not comprehend what aerodynamic control is.

    4: YOU REFUSE to aknowledge FACTS about aerodynamic control.

    5: YOU do not know what Rafale AoA limits are (as you proven yet again with fantasist figures) since you decided to dismiss the informations provided to YOU.

    6: You do not comprehend what OPERATIONAL EVALUATION means.

    To summerise you are totally inneducated and certainly NOT the authority here to give an opinion. Keep laughing.

    So READ AGAIN:

    YOU ARE PROVEN WRONG IN ALL ACCOUNTS...

    ONERA SAYS THESE MANEUVERS WERE EVALUATED OPERATIONALLY.
    Manoeuvrabilité et aérodynamque pour les avions de combat - Images de science - Onera
    HERE LINK!!! = PROOF.
    Objectif n°1 : Supermanoeuvrabilité - VIDEO A CG simulation is NOT an Operational evaluation.

    These are evaluated in operational conditions and are commonly used for air combat simulations.

    combat simulation = MOCK COMBAT vs MIRAGE 2000 = 18 kt and - 40 kt during COBRA.

    JEAN CAMUS EPNER QUALIFIED TEST PILOTS SAYS SO. = High Incidence Operational Evaluation by AdlA.

    = During test flights for opening the flight envelope at very low speed the aircraft flew at an incidence of more than 100° and at negative speeds of '40 knots without loss of control.

    Quote:
    'We consider that firing after a brutal nose-up like a Cobra are risked during combat because weapon separation problems can arise and pilot can be in a very dangerous situation if he fails to destroy his opponent(s). We prefer to use a very agile weapon, like the MICA and a helmet mounted sight' says Jean Camus, test pilot and ex-manager of the EPNER 5french test pilot school) and former M2000 test pilot.


    NOT CLEAR ENOUGH?

    LOL! Because now, you KNOW not only the dates at which these tests were conducted and concluded but also details of Operational Evaluation by the French EPNER qualified pilots do you? I DONT think so.

    Who speaks about fantasies here?


    That's EXACTLY what Jean Camus was saying.

    TVC also increases vulnerability to adverse fire and risks of failure.

    A high level | EPNER

    EPNER = Ecole su Personnel Navigant d'Essais et de Reception. = Armee de l'Air.

    And the flamer ask for a video from classified flight-tests! LOL!

    The FCS was written with no such limits, they explored the flight envelops with these laws already written, the rewritten laws didn't conscern the AoA limits but details in pilots "feel", positions of the soft and hard stop, stick movement etc.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    During heavy weapon separation tests, BEFORE High Incidence tests it was already reaching 40* AoA and the HUD clue was scalled consequently, this give you the full 30* AoA firing envelop + margin in operation.


    They dont need to rewrite the FCS laws, only relax it.

    Laucher or rails both have their firing envelops, aircraft/weapon aerodynamics are another matter, you will not find results of those tests online even less the firing envelop of an operational weapon.

    What you wont find ether is a succesfull test firing of an AAM during post-stall at very high AoA or during a Cobra, it never been achieved and if it had been it would be known by everyone because it would be a first.

    As for all the fanboys who fantasises about TVC they try to hide the FACT that all the aircraft which are equiped with the system don't have a totally clean aerodynamic.

    X-31 is no example for aerodynamic control, the F-16 even less, the Sukois are way too heavy to beat a Rafale in close combat with or without TVC and do not have the right amount of LIFT resulting in a higher wing load, they all are limited to 2 to 5.5 g (like the Sus in transonic) BELOW Rafale limit, the exception being the Mig-35 at 10.0 g, 1.0 g below.

    Typhoon shortcomings are well knows as well as that of F-22 (without TVC) and F-22 is NOT superior to Rafale with it, our pilots says so and rightly.

    In short, Eric Gerard and Cptn Romain are RIGHT: Rafale doesn't need TVC.

    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126094

    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126212

    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126229

    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126231

    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index364.html#post126249

    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index365.html#post126388

    Weight and complexity are hardly elements that you can dismiss, for your information Dassault didn't minimize the number of moving part from the design of the A to the aircraft in service for the stake of saving money...
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index358.html#post124921

    Something else, the USAF tested vs aircraft which are far from having Rafale level of maneuvrability and what the Rafale pilots says about F-22 is enough to validate Jean Camus and Eric Gerard comments on TVC.

    Today, USAF Squadron pilots knows which tactics are capable of defeating post-stall maneuvers.

    Rafale doesn't need it to deny F-22 in mock combat, but i suppose you will ask for a video from the French air force flight test center to validate their pilots comments too?

    Perhaps you should READ about the aircraft which have been tested TVC and what their level of aerodynamic control really is without it before giving an opinion.

    Alegedly, nowhere to be seen in ANY official site. = Unconfirmed.

    Did you notice that a SAAB Gripen with relaxed FCS laws can start and stop a post-stall spiral with a resulting turn rate of 90*/sec? Start and STOP = CONTROLED. NO TVC.
    MACH Aviation Magazine - på webben
    AS for th Su30 it has to be in a very specific spot in its flight envelop and it's nothing like an instantaneous moment, no advantage here.

    At Farnborough, the last time i saw Kerherve (M01), its high AoA spiral was faster over 180* than the Su Cobra and recovery time, he did TWO 180* in a row, so obviously there are many things about Rafale that people don't know.


    Because this was never an official position, the closest they ever came was conceptual design and comparisons with Evaluations during High incidence tests, conclusions were clear. NO TVC needed, NO Post-stall needed and F-22 vs Rafale proved this point to be valid.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page