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Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Apr 29, 2011.

?

which aircraft do you prefer

  1. RAFALE

    177 vote(s)
    54.1%
  2. TYPHOON

    150 vote(s)
    45.9%
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  1. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    There are several accounts of events at the ATLC, including one from Air & Cosmos a French Aviation magazine that claimed the Rafale was clubbed like baby seals by the Raptor at Al-Dhafra. While Flight Global reported that the F-22 was a no show and then there is Capt Romain, who wasn't present but decided to 'blog' about it. I almost forgot about the famous FSO TV snap shot of a helpless Raptor in the cross hair of triumphant Rafale. The only official statement by USAF is attributed to Lt Col Lansing "Shudda" Pilch a USAF officer interviewed by Arabian Aerospace at ATLC who claimed the Raptor was undefeated.

    I don't particularly care if the Mirage had the better of the Raptor, but I like to keep things real.The outcome of BFM engagement at ATLC is both controversial and inconclusive and in the interest of balance it is important to present the other sides account of events - which is what I did by quoting Lt Col Pilch. If it did happen and the Rafale and Mirage trashed the Raptor then I'm glad it happened at a training exercise with allies and our pilots hopefully learnt a valuable lesson from the exchange.
     
  2. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    You're more than welcome to show us, i don't think that you can read French and i have read all of them.

    Allow me to call you a LIAR for a starter, then you demonstrated that the link to the article you posted was bulls as well because the F-22 pilot doesn't say at all what the article says about the number of hours the F-22 pilots had when they came to the ATLC and loads of other inacuracies.


    Who said he wasn't there? You? Your source?


    Helples, right it might be, but sorry, it is a hard maneuvering F-22 at the very least and it do hit a nerve doesn't it?
    [​IMG]


    This is NO "cross hair" but a proximity warning; proving that the Raptor is climbing in full A-B (can see the plumes against the background) with vortexes and all at high g, from the minimum combat level and Rafale is diving on it, it is a camera shot which have to be AXIAL, slightly out of gun sight, the F-22 is visibly maneuvering hard, so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill...

    btw, Lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon was there and his comments were reported accurately.

    Now, go and dig an official, signed article from Flight Global saying this!

    I know Craig Hoyle and correspond with him regularly, he IS the ONLY official defense editor at F-I and never posted such article, more to the point, the infamous John Lake can post article in their sister edition, using the same website but of course you wouldn't know, would you?


    FALSE. The first report, the one i posted was collected from the 1/7 Commander comments during the official 1/7 press conference, the journalist and well respected Defenser Analyst works for the newspaper Liberation. Jean-Dominique Merchet.
    http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/

    He have 15 years of experiences in the Defense sector...



    You keep the bull factor very REAL for sure.

    The Mirage pilot was an Air Defense pilot, (Mirage 2000 C).

    For your info, there are NOT so many Air defense specialists in the 1/7 they all come in majority from Jaguar, Mirage 2000 D or even N, as opposed to the F-22 who are specifically trained for ACMs and WVR combat, more to the point, Raptor pilots fly a lot more than the French pilot does.

    That's reality for those who served and know what it is..


    For those who want it so, for our pilot it translates by:



    I think it is CLEAR that if it had been pilots from the 2/2, the result might well have been different and that according to this 1/7 pilot who spend most of its time doing A2G, the Rafale is at the same level than the Raptor in dogfight.

    But of course to YOU it is "controcversial" since only YOUR side of the story must be true btw this pilot says as well:


    He doesn't read Air& Cosmos nether do I for the same reasons.


    They never claimed "trashing" F-22, but they SAY clearly that Rafale is level with it even so the USAF pilots score ONE single kill, and it makes MY case.

    I served at B.A 102 and i know what pilot training is for having had to arm their aircrafts; the 1/7 have done not only all the work for weapon Operational doctrines with the CEAM since 2007, (and this ONLY for A2G since the A2A was already done before they stood up), they also trained new pilots for the other Squadrons flying Nuclear deterence.

    There is NO Air Superiority Squadron in AdlA flying Rafale, so your stories about controversy are just that, stories, they were there, they are qualified to tell if Rafale was level and they say it was.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Here are the most experienced and skilled for the AdlA DEMO team, Cptn MICHAEL BROCARD, the least experienced, is the only one who flew Mirage 2000C in a Squadron he only have 1000 on Rafale since 2007 and spent more time in Afganistan than most, reasons for having this number of hours on Rafale.

    Before he joined and the site was updated, Cptn Ruet already had 1200 h (in 2009) so he still is more experienced by a fair margin and is also an instructor at the 1/7.

    The others are coming from Mirage 2000N and Jaguar Squadron with 1200 h on Rafale for Cptn CÉDRIC RUET who was the FIRST AdlA Rafale Solo pilot and is not the Coach...

    Rafale Solo Display
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
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  3. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    You're more than welcome to show us, i don't think that you can read French and i have read all of them.

    Allow me to call you a LIAR for a starter, then you demonstrated that the link to the article you posted was bulls as well because the F-22 pilot doesn't say at all what the article says about the number of hours the F-22 pilots had when they came to the ATLC and loads of other inacuracies.


    Who said he wasn't there? You? Your source?


    Helples, right it might be, a Rafale on top of you is never good news, but sorry, it is a hard maneuvering F-22 at the very least and it do hit a nerve doesn't it?
    [​IMG]


    This is NO "cross hair" but a proximity warning; proving that the Raptor is climbing in full A-B (can see the plumes against the background) with vortexes and all at high g, from the minimum combat level and Rafale is diving on it, it is a camera shot which have to be AXIAL, slightly out of gun sight, the F-22 is visibly maneuvering hard, so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill...

    btw, Lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon was there and his comments were reported accurately.

    Now, go and dig an official, signed article from Flight Global saying this!

    I know Craig Hoyle and correspond with him regularly, he IS the ONLY official defense editor at F-I and never posted such article, more to the point, the infamous John Lake can post article in their sister edition, using the same website but of course you wouldn't know, would you?


    FALSE. The first report, the one i posted was collected from the 1/7 Commander comments during the official 1/7 press conference, the journalist and well respected Defenser Analyst works for the newspaper Liberation. Jean-Dominique Merchet.
    Secret Défense

    He have 15 years of experiences in the Defense sector...



    You keep the bull factor very REAL for sure.

    The Mirage pilot was an Air Defense pilot, (Mirage 2000 C).

    For your info, there are NOT so many Air defense specialists in the 1/7 they all come in majority from Jaguar, Mirage 2000 D or even N, as opposed to the F-22 who are specifically trained for ACMs and WVR combat, more to the point, Raptor pilots fly a lot more than the French pilot does.

    That's reality for those who served and know what it is..


    For those who want it so, for our pilot it translates by:



    I think it is CLEAR that if it had been pilots from the 2/2, the result might well have been different and that according to this 1/7 pilot who spend most of its time doing A2G, the Rafale is at the same level than the Raptor in dogfight.

    But of course to YOU it is "controcversial" since only YOUR side of the story must be true btw this pilot says as well:


    He doesn't read Air& Cosmos nether do I for the same reasons.


    They never claimed "trashing" F-22, but they SAY clearly that Rafale is level with it even so the USAF pilots score ONE single kill, and it makes MY case.

    I served at B.A 102 and i know what pilot training is for having had to arm their aircrafts; the 1/7 have done not only all the work for weapon Operational doctrines with the CEAM since 2007, (and this ONLY for A2G since the A2A was already done before they stood up), they also trained new pilots for the other Squadrons flying Nuclear deterence.

    There is NO Air Superiority Squadron in AdlA flying Rafale, so your stories about controversy are just that, stories, they were there, they are qualified to tell if Rafale was level and they say it was.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Here are the most experienced and skilled for the AdlA DEMO team, Cptn MICHAEL BROCARD, the least experienced, is the only one who flew Mirage 2000C in a Squadron he only have 1000 on Rafale since 2007 and spent more time in Afganistan than most, reasons for having this number of hours on Rafale.

    Before he joined and the site was updated, Cptn Ruet already had 1200 h (in 2009) so he still is more experienced by a fair margin and is also an instructor at the 1/7.

    The others are coming from Mirage 2000N and Jaguar Squadron with 1200 h on Rafale for Cptn CÉDRIC RUET who was the FIRST AdlA Rafale Solo pilot and is not the Coach...

    Rafale Solo Display
     
  4. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    the american f-22 pilot says very clearly no F-22 was shot down of course you did not open the link but open it the interview is in plain english

    LiveLeak.com - F-22 Undefeated at Al Dhafra: 27th FS pilotthe F-22 pilot say:-" it was no competition" - this means Rafale never was close to compete to F-22

    watch the video
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  5. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    ok buddy! Rafale rules! It is the best fighter ever made.
    Lets get back to you telling us all more about the wonders of Rafale.

     
  6. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    One has to distinguish between the performance demonstrated during the ATLC exercise itself and the various DACT setups in advance of that exercise. ATLC is about qualifying/improving skills of pilots as element and package leads within COMAOs and not about X vs X DACTs. The DACTs were conducted earlier during the continuation training phase and possibly separately as well. During the ATLC itself most of the aircraft were operating on the same side or in some cases played red air with restrictions imposed. During the DACTs the F-22s defeated the Rafales in 1 vs 1 gun fights one out of six times and the rest of the engagements ended up as a draw. So no the F-22 wasn't defeated, but its victory wasn't overwhelming either. What the French say is that with the lessons learned and experiences made they are confident to be able to defeat the F-22 close in. But remember that in real combat F-22s would keep the fight at the distance and if they close up WVR they might do it on their terms thus dominating the battles by forcing their conditions on the opposition. And while traditional dogfights are still trained, in real combat pilots wouldn't hunt for gun kills but expend their missiles, preferably at HOBS angles if possible. The F-22 currently lacks a HOBS missile capability as its sole WVR weapon (spare the gun) is the AIM-9M. The AIM-9X is yet to be integrated and this will not be done before the Increment 3.2 upgrade which won't be available for another few years. Even if available the F-22 still lacks the targeting capability to engage at HOBS angles as no HMS is available and only cooperative targeting might be possible which has some serious limitations as it requires the wingman to be in the correct position at the right time.

    Wrt TVC it's as stupid to say that post-stall requires TVC as it's to say that TVC offers no benefits whatsoever.
     
  7. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    This is accurate.

    I wouldn't go that far, although they might think so, they never said it and I never saw it reported as such, they compared the two aircrafts and concluded they at the same level close-in.

    F-22 has the same passive EM capabilities than Rafale, doesn't need to use its radar and with data-link might be able to fire an AAM toward an opponent using its radar.

    See above.

    The more efficient the aerodynamics the less TVC benefits the aircrafts, a SAAB Gripen starting and stopping a 90*/sec spiral turn at 89* AoA with ailerons input shows just why.

    90*/sec is a huge rate, and TVC might not allow to reach this on a combat aircraft, although it have to be confirmed or infirmed.

    If Eric Gerard said TVC were not useful it is mainly because with its actual performances, the Rafale allow its pilots to fight at level performances with F-22 and i have no doubt Su30 and Mig-35.

    For Post-stall maneuvers, relaxing the TVC limits would allow it to pass all the already demonstrated maneuvers safely, they never managed to depart the aircraft other than in a controlled maneer, Dynamic stall and other.

    You could learn a lot by studying its aerodynamics, but i understand that to comprehend them it would take you a lot of time, i posted enough information, you just have to start reading something else than the mediocre articles you posted.

    btw, the Mirage 2000 C pilot, doing the Rafale demo for 2011, was not at the ATLC, he graduated Chef de patrouille in 2003.
    Exercices
     
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  8. nicolas10

    nicolas10 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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  9. someone

    someone BANNED BANNED

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    Shut this useless thread
     
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    The same old arguments of you and the same habit to twist and turn things! As I told you in the same discussion on PDF before, the US pilots are actually saying the same like the French, just in different words!
    The French pilot said that most of the engagements went to draw and the Rafale was killed only 1, or 2 times (depending on source), which confirms what the US pilot says, that the F22 was undefeated. The point that the US pilot left out is that the Rafale, an 4.5 gen fighter without TVC and such an high TWR, or speed, was that maneuverable, that they couldn't kill it. He simply pointed out the good side for them, while leaving out the downside and that is the important point!!!

    Btw, as usual you left out the important part of the article, because the F22 pilot said more than you wanted the people to know right? :devil::

    He praised it and mentioned especially its manoeuverability and said it's "at least" on par to comparable generation of US fighters, if not better, but it shouldn't be surprising that he didn't mentioned the latter directly.

    Till ATLC anybody (especially the EF fanbase) confused the Rafale as a fighter bomber and not beeing comparable to EF or other air superiority fighters in air combats. Not to mention all the claims about Rafale beeing underpowered and not suited for hot climate conditions, but the ATLC combats showed exactly the opposite!
    A fighter bomber that has no focus on beeing highly maneuverable, without good TWRs, turn rates and low wingloadings would not have achieved at least 4 draws in dogfights with the so called best air superiority fighter in the world isn't it? That's why even the F22 pilot was impressed!

    The fact is, Rafale was developed with the aim to be very good in all roles, because it replaces many different fighters in different roles. That makes him compromise at some features, or go different ways then other fighters, but offers a more balanced performance in return and that makes it a true multi / omni role design.
    From IAF point of view, that's exactly what they want! A fighter that offers good strike performance (which is important when you replace so many strike fighters), without getting too far away from their traditional preference for fighters with good flight performance and what makes it more suitable than the EF.
     
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  11. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    here is where you have to use logic, check several sources, the first source is the one that claims F-22 has a sustained turn rate of 28 deg/s

    watch minute 8:15


    here the Raptor pilot says undefeated
    LiveLeak.com - F-22 Undefeated at Al Dhafra: 27th FS pilot



    later check:



    Normally, the results of dissimilar air combat training exercises are not publicized, but following the 2009 ATLC exercises, there were tantalizing glimpses of what had gone on. During an official press conference the commanding officer of the French Rafale detachment at Al Dhafra, Colonel Fabrice Glandclaudron, claimed that in six within-visual-range ‘dogfight’ engagements with the F-22A, only one resulted in the virtual destruction of a Rafale He said the other four engagements were ‘inconclusive’, or terminated due to a lack of fuel, or approaching the pre-determined height limit. It was subsequently hinted by French sources that, had they been allowed to simulate the use of their Mica missiles, the Rafale would have gained victories over the USAF fighters.

    The USAF refused to comment directly about the French claims, though the 27th Fighter Squadron’s project officer for the F-22 deployment, Major John Rogers, told Arabian Aerospace: “I don’t remember the fights quite that way. In any case, we leave claims and counter-claims to the debrief.”
    Arabian Aerospace - Raptor rules the desert roost


    Now if you believe Rafale can sustain 28 deg/s turns which i do not think it can, for several reasons, you can say the Rafale is as agile as the F-22, but Rafale won`t achieve 28 deg/sec


    now see

    only one resulted in the virtual destruction of a Rafale He said the other four engagements were ‘inconclusive’, or terminated due to a lack of fuel, or approaching the pre-determined height limit.
    (what happened to the sixth combat? four inconclusive one won by F-22 six?

    answer:
    . According to Air & Cosmos' sources, the USAF requested only two training sorties between the F-22 and the Rafale of three engagements each, with one-on-one combat within visual range. [In other words, the USAF says, "If you don't turn on your Spectra system, we won't turn on our ALR-94."]

    In those six engagements, the F-22 scored one gun kill, but the other five dogfights ended in a draw, Air & Cosmos says. Another sources tells the magazine the F-22 scored two gun kills, with four nulls.
    http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/02/uae-missile-demands-and-more-r.html





    do you think Rafale flying at subsonic speed will go out of fuel easily? or the Raptor run out of fuel?
    does not say dare2 Rafale has supercruise?

    see it says height, terminated by going close to the height limit, who do you think might had gone near the height limit first?

    The Rafale or the F-22, the possibility is not the F-22, but the pray, yes the Rafale, the only jet the most likely went out of fuel first is not the F-22, but Rafale, check the american pilot says

    : “I don’t remember the fights quite that way. In any case, we leave claims and counter-claims to the debrief.”

    Arabian Aerospace - Raptor rules the desert roost

    Rafale will achive its best turn rates flying without any weapon and weapon pylons, drag kills lift, so externally mounted weapons reduce lift, at no moment an armed Rafale will beat a Raptor, Raptor flies without any externally mounted weapon or fuel tanks, that is the reason it can achieve so high turn rates plus TVC nozzles

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The F-22's combat configuration is "clean", that is, with all armament carried internally and with no external stores. This is an important factor in the F-22's stealth characteristics, and it improves the fighter's aerodynamics by dramatically reducing drag, which, in turn, improves the F-22's range F-22 Weapons

    this is is one of the great advantages of J-20, F-22 or PAKFA over Eurofighter or Rafale, they have less drag in a turn

    Internal carriage. Alternative approaches for missile carriage include conventional external carriage,
    conformal carriage, and internal carriage. Conventional external carriage has disadvantages of high radar
    cross section (RCS), high carriage drag, and potentially adverse aeroelastic, stability, and control interactions
    with the aircraft platform. Conformal carriage has an advantage of reduced RCS and drag compared to
    conventional carriage. However, the preferred approach for the lowest carriage RCS and the lowest drag is
    internal carriage. Figure 15 shows examples of internal carriage and loadouts for low observable fighters,
    bombers, and helicopters. In the upper left is shown the F-22 internal center bay. The F-22 center bay
    typically has an outboard partition for air-to-air weapons (e.g., AMRAAMs) an



    http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFullText/RTO/EN/RTO-EN-018///EN-018-07.pdf


    From the above equation for turn rate it seems clear that the maximum turn rate can occur
    when the lift coefficient has its maximum value and the load factor has its maximum value

    further more


    Hence for this aircraft, the maximum sustainable turn rate occurs at the maximum CL, where
    thrust available equals drag. This result is generally true if the corner turn rate is not sustainable.
    In that case the highest turn rate occurs by using .

    http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~lutze/AOE3104/turningflight.pdf



    So less drag better sustained turn rate
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
  12. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I left that part out thinking it would be offensive to Rafale lovers, damned if I do damned if I don't.:cray:
    Shall we end the ATLC saga and refocus on the rampant Rafale?
     
  13. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I do not trust unsigned articles expecially from this site since John Lake too the habit to write there for some time now...



    Rafale is way more maneuvrable than any Legacy fighter.


    Rafale was never designed with a BIAS toward A2G role, 3 of its original requierements out of five were for A2A.


    I leave this to the Indian A-F and market analysts i prefer to focus on what i know best and it is its requiered specs, politico-industrial history and aerodynamics.
     
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  14. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I know 15 years old Air force Cadets who would come up with a far more developed and accurate analysis by memory only, this work of yours is not only BIASED, it is also a poor attempt to explain why you insist in pretending to know better than EPNER qualified test pilots, and totally uninformed.

    You have no clue about what you are writing, about AAM drag about TVC and about maximum turn rates etc.

    Best examples:

    1) Taking the Maximum Structural Load out of the equation is laughable, F-22 have a Structural g Load of 9.0 g, Rafale 11.0 g, this includes A2A weapons and pylons, tanks are stressed for 9.0g.

    Best turn rate clean or in A2A configuration will always include this factor and btw, the wing tip AAM doesn't come into this when one Cd, their are part of the "clean" configuration, so low is their drag Coefficient, so you're FAR from being anywhere near reality.
    [​IMG]

    2) Maximum Lift Coefficient: Rafale wins hands down thanks to integrated close-coupled canards, Raptor elevators are also LIFTING surfaces (canard are NOT on an instable aircraft) in subsonic but doesn't increases the wing lift, its damping, its dynamic instability or its response to its own control surfaces input, the close-coupled canard does.


    3) Resulting Induced Drag, same, F-22 is a 48* DELTA and produced VORTEX lift the same way, they both feature LEX but F-22 doesn't have canards = HIGHER DRAG for equivalent Cl.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    4) Resulting Trim Drag: same, for as long as F-22 doesn't uses its TVC for compensating trim drag it is higher than that of a close-coupled canard, and in many parts of its flight envelop it is actually the case, expecially in hard g maneuvering, close coupled canard configuration have lower trim drag than a conventional arrangement.


    5) Wing loading:

    F-22 Raptor: 43.430lb 840sqft² 51.702lb/ft²

    Rafale C: 20.943lb 492sqft² 42.567b/ft²

    Come back when you got your FACTS right.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
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  15. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Hello All, I read this Posting, it was initially about EFT vs Rafale and now it has become EFT/F-22 V/s Rafale
    Guess the supporters of Rafale want to prove its the best fighter in the world and can take anything out including maybe the fictional deathstar of Star wars!!
    All said, here is my logic and I want people to ascertain.
    Any plane should be with its strengths.
    For example.. Mig-21, its strength is speed, so its more better on interceptor role, so an upgraded Mig-21-2000 with say 4 missles (2 heatseekers and 2 Radar Guided) would be an effective interceptor. but having Mig-21 to dogfight would be stupid as it is not designed as a Dog fighter, but an air superiority airplane (with short range) :D

    So the strengths of F-22 is stealth, good speed, super cruise. It is a good dog fighter supposedly but it does lack the AIM-9X which can it a notch more better.

    So based on this, F-22 with its advance weaponry and stealth is good as a medium range airsuperiority fighter, and if it does lack a short range weaponry, it would be stupid of F-22 pilot to want to dogfight. !!
    If it Dogfights even WW2 plane like Spitfire, or FW-190 or Zero or Mustang can defeat it as these planes are naturally slow, more manoverable, and they have nice firepower, :D
    So I dont think F-22 would want to dog fight, it would be stupid, and F-22 might do so in an excercise only because its an excercise not real life action where there is chance to lose (the plane)
     
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