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Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Apr 29, 2011.

?

which aircraft do you prefer

  1. RAFALE

    177 vote(s)
    54.1%
  2. TYPHOON

    150 vote(s)
    45.9%
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  1. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    hahahah yeah and so and so, i am putting you the pilots who claimed no F-22 shot down by Mirage 2000 as your french bloggers acertain, one even by a supposedly french pilot, second i have given you another US pilot Retireed who claims F-22 has a 28 deg/s sustained turn rate ah but i see you do not quote that eh?


    You says drag is not important now? but what when you claim Eurofighter is more draggy then you say -" Rafale is better more agile it has less drag-" only when is convinient you use those physics principles, The US pilots is saying F-22 has a sustained turn rate of at least 5 deg/s higher than even the Su-30MKI; 8 deg/s higher than Gripen, 12deg/s higher than F-15.


    Ah but i know quote me a official statement Rafale achieves 28 deg/s sustained, and the only reason the F-22 gets so high because even it has similar wing loading and Thrust to weigh ratio to fighters like F-15 and Eurofighter it has no aerodynamic clutter so it can sustain a much better turn rate, plus TVC nozzles must at least improve the turn rate 10% so a 28 deg/s is believeable.


    The Rafale might be close in instantaneous to F-22 but all the clutter it will carry will rendered useless at BVR and in close combar it also will lose.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  2. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    All what you write here is pure fantasy F-22 has no aerodynamic clutter it does not carry all the stores and weapons externally, not even two AIM-9s, a Rafale carries all its weapons externally, increasing drag.
    The US pilots claim the F-22 never was shot down by any Mirage 2000, and they claim the F-22 has a sustained turn rate of 28 deg/s this is 8 deg/s higher than Gripen, 5 deg/s higher than SU-30MKI, 12 deg/s higher than F-15, so you are claiming F-22 has inferior Sustained turn rates when the Rafale carrying weapons externally is much more draggier.

    Of course you do not quote that.
     
  3. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Nothing like it, i stick to fact and uses aerodynamics as comparion.


    For example.. Mig-21, its strength is speed,
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
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  4. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Here are some assumption:

    Assuming F119-PW-100 is NOT optimized for supercruise with a higher percentage of DRY thrust than M-88 (above 75%)...

    F-22: 26250/35000lb -52500 DRY 43340kg TWR DRY: 1.211

    Rafale C: 11250/17000lb -22500 DRY 20943kg TWR DRY: 1.074

    With 6 X MICAs Rafale supercuises at M 1.4.

    F-22 is said to be supercuising at <> M 1.7 but this appears to be the absolute limit with no thrust reserve.

    Cruise been defined as the best throttle settings in stabilized flight vs the longest resulting range, the lower M 1.5 figure seems more appropriate for defining their respective REAL supercruise capability.

    So (?) = 0.2 M from 1.5 to 1.7.

    The addition of an external supersonic tank of 1.250 l is known to be equivalent to a 0.1 M drag penalty, we do not have figures for the AAMs and pylons but the aircraft is cleared for DASH Mach in A2A configuration = 6 X AAMs.

    This is the main difference between USAF Legacy aircraft such as F-16 which was never designed to carry AIM-120 as standard combat load.

    Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale were designed from the outset for this purpose, they are tructurally stressed accordingly which is not the case of F-16 which pylons involves a g limit (among others).

    The only known pylon g limit lower than 9.0 for AAM firing in the case of Rafale is that of the ventral ejectors which are designed for the first shoot BVR anyway.

    The aircraft respective drag polar are lowering from the supersonic point so at a higher Mach the aircraft drags less than just passed supersonic.

    To me it seems that the resulting Mach doesn't show much of AAM excess drag compared to internal bay volume resulting drag, considering their respective thrust ratio and possible optimization of PW-119 for higher Machs than M-88 in military power.

    And ps, i have seen and still have access to some AAM flight and firing envelops so i KNOW what the Dc of AAM + pylons are, the test to define these limits were conducted at DASH speed with a margin.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
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  5. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Fantasy is for those who doesn't know. Q: Which one of us have been trained with AAMs in an Air force and knows the flight and firing limitation of those weapons? Do you have any of these weapons flight and firing envelops to claim such thing?

    Do you know what are the Mach and g limits for firing a MICA from a Mirage 2000 or Rafale?


    He does not claim such a thing.

    Again YOU are living in cucu land here, what he says is clear; during the official encounters F-22 was not defeated, we never claimed otherwise, the French Mirage 2000 pilot who scored a kill didn't do it in the frame of these event but DURING these events, flying an UAE A-F Mirage 2000-9, this cannot be part of the French deployement.

    As for Rafale sustained turn rates with or without AAMs you still have NO CLUE, all you are doing is using false interpretations to make false points, AAM + pylons Dc is far lower than what you imply, so do NOT put words into my mouth, because YOU are the one not taking DRAG into account without knowing, F-22 have a permanent drag penalty due to internal bay = VOLUME.

    YOU insisting into knowing BETTER than French pilot when showing the lowest level of aerodynamic comprehension and expecially military training is plain funny.

    I don't need to, it was replied to anyway and it was clear for everyone but you.
    http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/eurofighter-typhoon-v-s-dassault-rafale-analysis-6127/index368.html#post126699

    All you have been doing so far is to SPIN your way and desinform people with false interpretations of aerodynamic laws.

    FACT: Rafale pilots says it doesn't need TVC and managed to deny F-22 pilots 5 time out of 6 while being more trained in A2G than A2A as opposed to the F-22 pilots who are A2A specialists.

    The F-22 "superiority" is proven to be NIL close-in and they say so, Rafale is level with F-22 in close combat, all your little videos and spins of aerodynamic and physic laws wont change that, they know better than you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  6. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    hahaha

    Yeah but a small detail i posted you a video where the US pilot says not me, the clean lines of the F-22 is thanks to internal weapons bays, allowing less drag, the F-22 pilots says the F-22 never was defeated by any Mirage 2000 hahaha and later on a US retired pilots says F-22 achieves 28 deg/s that guys knows more than you and i am quoting him, i quote the pilots and i quoted a a paper with math that clearly stablishes drag VS thrust, less drag better turn.



    And by the way, i quote videos and pilots or are you an F-22 pilot? no of course no you try to claim those videos are my words but they are not they are the pilots`s that is your last attempt, but saddly the US pilot said no F-22 was beaten by any Mirage 2000 and that contradicts all your blogger`s claims where you base most of your fantasies
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  7. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Is all you got.

    Laughing at your own ignorance doesn't make your point.

    FACT is, you spin your way out of a stance you cannot sustain because it is plain wrong, keep your kid video "proof" game for yourself, i need no video for "proof", i know way more and better than you do, so you if can fool other posters but don't even think about trying this with me.

    You putting word into people mouth from myself to a F-22 pilot is plain FUNNY too, what kind of behavior is this? Are you legal age? Do your mum knows you're using her PC without her consent?

    AGAIN: Rafale pilots know better than you, write this page and go over it...
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Again: F-22 pilots know better than you and i posted the videos

    and actually one of the videos has the pilot that flew there and are his words not mine
     
  9. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    He doesn't say it was undefeated during a mock combat which took place out of these events, he specified DURING the event which are the ACTMs and ATL Course.

    If your English is that bad that can explain why you don't comprehend half of what you're writing.


    YOUR interpretation of what he says as usual now it would be better for everyone if you were to stop trolling, you're drawning this topic under tons of uneducated flame bates...

    In any case Rafale = 11.0 g others = 9.0 g.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Look, the F-22 pilot never says the F-22 was ever shot down not even the Rafale was ever able to down it, not even french sources claim a F-22 was virtually downed by Rafale, the blogger claims a mirage 2000 passed its gunsight near the F-22 briefly, some claims like you the Mirage 2000 achieved a kill, the american pilot says they faced Mirage 2000 and F-16s but they were undefeated.


    Rafale never ever will achieve 28 deg/s, F-22 can do 28 deg/s sustained turn rate; the Mirage 2000 barely does 19 deg/s, Rafale at the most can do 23 deg/s, Gripen barely does 20 deg/s


    in fact any one can watch the video a see those are his words
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=629_1261162786


    and to prove you are wrong England, Jordan and Pakistan do not operate Mirage 2000s, and you claimed it was not a french mirage but a UAE mirage 2000 that achieved the virtual kill, but the american pilots says they were undefeated, and that they faced latest blocks of F-16 and Mirage 2000s
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  11. yeti

    yeti 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Eurofighter is better at A2A and is a newer bird which has more room for growth it will be in IAF
     
  12. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    You can't admit been wrong and keep twisting yourself to knots.

    You're FUNNY at best. Replies have been given to YOU and it's enough, you're WRONG again, keep puting words into people mouth, we know exactly what he said, everyone else understand but of course YOU don't...

    Desperate are we? French pilots lies and edit patches for the stake of showing off???

    Since WHEN does the French operates UAE Mirage 2000 during official qualification course?

    He doesn't say it was undefeated during a mock combat which took place out of these events, he specified DURING the event which are the ACTMs and ATL Course.

    MiG-23MLD, you're a flaming troll. Get lost.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  13. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    i am not funny, in fact you can not quote a single american source claiming a Mirage 2000 shot down a F-22 in virtual combat,
    that is the reason you have changed your tactic, prove me with american sources that the Mirage 2000 shot down in virtual combat an F-22, you won`t find that, simply like that, and i do have presented you the source with one of the pilots who flew there and he claims the F-22 was unbeaten
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  14. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    NOT a single american source quote encounters having taken place out of the ATLC.
    [​IMG]

    THIS DOES, it exist, the combat was reported and if the yanks doesn't reply to it, tough, it doesn't make your case; you don't know what happened there, and YOU didn't present US with ANY source denying this.

    And btw you're so desperate, you post RED FLAG 2008 videos for that of ATLC 2009, proving just how UNINFORMED you can be...

     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  15. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    hahaha yeah its funny and you claim i say a MiG-23 can beat and F-22, the F-22 has a 28 deg/s sustained turn rate you mirage only 19 deg/s the american pilots says unbeaten, your fantasies are irreal desires, no mirage 2000 can beat the Raptor in agility
     
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