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Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Apr 29, 2011.

?

which aircraft do you prefer

  1. RAFALE

    177 vote(s)
    54.1%
  2. TYPHOON

    150 vote(s)
    45.9%
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  1. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Thanks, i admit i needed to stay away for a while...

    The beau jolee Nouveau est arrive... http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/pdf/budget/plf2012/a3809-tVII.pdf

    Look like the French Assemblee Nationale do their home work...

    Remind me of this quote next time we are told M88 is underpowered...
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  2. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

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  3. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

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    well gud to see G777 also back nice ,Welcome back G777:bounce-grn:
     
  4. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    What's curious is, if the Rafale would pull 11 g as often as other aircraft pull 9 g, why does neither Dassault, the DGA, French MoD or the AdA/MN declare the Rafale to be an 11 g fighter? Why does all these sources state 9 g? And at what gross weight is the aircraft cleared to pull 11 g anyway? Thus far we have seen the aircraft pulling 11 g at some airshows in light load conditions with two wingtip missiles/smokewinders accounting for some 100 kg each and internal fuel only and we don't even know how much fuel the aircraft carried at the time it pulled 11 g.

    If one reads the FoxThree article:
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_9.pdf
    It states:
    It latter continues and states:
    To me it sounds like the 185% weren't expected/designed by intention, but the airframe turned out to be stronger than expected. The airframe life time required in the specifications was only 5000 h and following the results Dassault concludes that the airframe will last 7000 h, 40% more than required given the same mission profiles, hence loads and stresses.

    That Typhoon's UL is just 1.4 isn't coincidence! The designers opted for a reduced UL to cut weight, insisting that the FCS would provide the necessary protection to provide the necessary safety margin. All airframe components the FCS can't protect (such as the landing gear) are designed with an UL of 1.5. It's noteworthy that the there was no load testing conducted where the airframe has been destroyed to verify the designed UL.

    If you want to read up more on the subject I think this may be of interest for you:
    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p010425.pdf
    http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFulltext/RTO/EN/RTO-EN-015///EN-015-09.pdf
     
  5. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Cheers :biggthumpup:

    I am glad to be back, I like IDF.
     
  6. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    What is curious is that you still can't comprehend figure given as Operational and Maximum or Dash.

    We all know that Rafale can reach Mach 2.0 as Dash Mach and Eurofighter Operational Mach is 1.8, so more spin with twisted use of data is not going to help you on this one either.

    Mirage 2000 is also designed for 11.0 g why does neither Dassault, the DGA, French MoD or the AdA/MN declare it to be an 11 g fighter?

    Typhoon Operational Mach is 1.8 why does neither Eurofighter, UK MOD, German MoD or the German A-F declare the Typhoon to be an M 1.8 fighter?


    To you means to someone who didn't study the subject in any form nor details, so your opinion is worth what you know, meaning not much. Want a proper example?

    = If you have had tried to fly gliders you would have had pass a First Degree theorical, to learn the minimum about structural design (among other subjects), as for trying to imply Dassault-Aviation didn't know what they were doing it's funny, it is not them who need to strengthen the airframe, plan to use LEX, Implement ALSR and Transonic mitigation twicks and have to reduce Maximum Mach because they still have an issue with potentialy destructive vibrations in the inlets from roll-out-day, but Eurofighter; all of which isues are properly documented and shows some serious level of inexperience in both aerodynamics and structurtal design.

    Then, the example you are giving doesn't make your case at all, your interpretation is based on false assumption and interpretations of what reality is for the Industry, i think littlejohn agreed with me for some good reasons, he knows his subject perhaps better than myself btw, but apparently you still don't comprehed what is writen properly.


    littlejohn and I certainly know more about the subject than you do, in particular on the toipc of structural design and Load limits, what of couse you ommit to tell everyone here is that Typhoon is designed for 6.000 h at its Operational Load Limit of 9.0 g whetheir Dassault clearly indicated a 1.8 limit before failure with a life span of 7.000 h.

    The word ECONOMICAL here means used as such with no excessive structural fatigue guaranteed, and littlejohn understood this properly first time, you still can't get your head around it, although proper figure computing demonstrates this very clearly.

    As for the "protection" offered by the FCS; it is the SAME in the case of Rafale and it FCS allows it to pull 3.0 g more than Typhoon for exactly the same purpose and same results, so again, more spin and twisted use of data is not making YOUR case.

    Just a few reminders here, reality is: Dassault Aviation invented CATIA, developed it, used it on Rafale design and its structural limit for all versions is computed on the requierements for the M version even before strenghtening specific to the M as to increase structural commonality, it is clearly explained here, in an official AdlA video from Service d'Information et de Relations Publiques de l'Armee de l'Air.
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbk565_le-rafale-le-roi-du-ciel-1-3_tech

    Compared to you comments on the subject we can see who knows his business...

    Rafale designed Operational structural load is well above the international 1.5 standard whetheir that of Typhoon was originally lower by 1.0 point to gain weight, a measure later reversed with structural patch up to make it A2G capable from the T2 version.

    Write this page and get over it once and for all, and while you're at it, before trying to tackle a subject, learn the minimum about it.

    ps if you wanted to make yourself useful to the folks of this forum you're try to figure what is it exactly Eurofightter GmBH are planning to do to resolve the inlet vibration issue.

    Any Typhoon fan cares to explain this in other ways than the usual flame? Cheers.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  7. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Österreichs Bundesheer - Waffen und Gert - Eurofighter EF 2000

    Technische Daten
    Triebwerke 2 Mantelstromtriebwerke Eurojet EJ200
    Länge: 15,96 m
    Höhe: 5,28 m
    Spannweite: 10,95 m
    Höchstgeschwindigkeit 2.495 km/h in 10.975 m Höhe
    Reichweite 1.390 km
    Dienstgipfelhöhe 16.765 m
    max. Flughöhe 19.812 m

    Specifications
    Engines 2 Eurojet EJ200 turbofan engines
    Length: 15.96 m
    Height: 5.28 m
    Wingspan: 10.95 m
    Maximum speed 2495 km / h at 10 975 m
    Range 1390 km
    Service ceiling 16 765 m
    max. Altitude 19 812 m

    Dare2 seems to ASSUME a lot.
     
  8. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Repost for cause of trolling by the usual...
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  9. Mr_Breaker

    Mr_Breaker Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    RAF - Typhoon FGR4

    www.luftwaffe.de/portal/poc/luftwaffe?uri=ci%3Abw.lw.waff.jets.euro.techn - Translator

    http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aeronautica.difesa.it%2FMezzi%2FvelivoliDotazione%2FPagine%2FEurofighter2000Typhoon.aspx

    www.ejercitodelaire.mde.es/ea/pag?idDoc=6485A0861301E048C12570D700463CE4&idRef=4D3582D4F64BAB7EC125745000327771 - Translator

    RAL 7013 - Eurofighter Typhoon

    Eurofighter:  Technical Data

     
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  10. Mr_Breaker

    Mr_Breaker Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This makes Dassault look desperate....
     
  11. SpArK

    SpArK SorCeroR Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    The reversed pricing for Swiss would be seriously looked upon by MoD for sure.
     
  12. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    almost 40 Billion $ were spent on development of Rafale and total manufactured so far 180 ordered with 93 delivered

    As for EFT almost 50 Billion $ were spent on development and total manufactured so far 499 ordered with 301 delivered

    SO certain Dassault needs more funds
     
  13. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Where does it say Dash Mach? And does it say anything about external loadout. And what Max speed are the vibrations occuring at or do you ASSUME you are right. Because the way I see it. You saw a site that says mach 1.8 and you assume it matches with somthing else that is talking about, well, somthing else.
     
  14. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Where does it SAY Mach 2.0 CAN be sustained?

    For times when a quick sprint is required the Typhoon can employ reheat with an upper (design) limit of Mach 2.0.
    http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  15. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Dassault have little to do with this; and if you really want to figure reality from the fantasiess these guys are writing, download the Assemblee Nationale documents and translate them.

    Upgrades are funded for Rafale btw and a lot more so than is the case for Typhoon, so "Dassault", in fact the GIE Rafale have a lot more funds available than Eurofighter does and managed to keep the cost low whetheir Typhoon developement cost has risen by 50% and unit cost by 75%.

    Something else, the offer to Switzerland is an optimised one specifically for the Swiss Air Force needs, with a version involving lower capabilities in the A2G role, unit so cost is obviously lower, the GIE is not so desperate...
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
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