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Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Apr 29, 2011.

?

which aircraft do you prefer

  1. RAFALE

    177 vote(s)
    54.1%
  2. TYPHOON

    150 vote(s)
    45.9%
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  1. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  2. nick_indian

    nick_indian FULL MEMBER

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    When will the result be out guys ?
     
  3. arulcharles

    arulcharles Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    In the Middle of the tread some one said that the EFT speed,range and altitude are different for various countries

    U may right about 1.8Mach but the one Proposed for MMRCA deal is 2Mach

    India’s delay has given the fighter more time to mature, and upgrades and new weapon options are giving current production versions full multi-role capabilities.

    Source:-India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition

    And also Pls Explain this
    Typhoon fighters reportedly have “supercruise” capability, though it probably isn’t sustainable once the fighter is armed.

    It is also from same source
     
  4. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    You have to differenciate between DASH which is the absolute, non-sustainable Maximum and the Operational Mach.

    Supercruise is not related to the topic of Maximum as in involves a <90% throttle setting vs Altitude in stabelized flight to reach the maximum range, Rafale also supercruise, it's no big deal.

    What DASH is:

    For times when a quick sprint is required the Typhoon can employ reheat with an upper (design) limit of Mach 2.0.
    http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html

    That's all there is to it, a quick sprint.

    As for ceilings there are military standards/procedures which defines them and they are computed on the available climb rate available at the given altitude.

    Combat, Cruise, Service, Absolute.

    If a figure is given otherwise it is not necessarely accurate it is mostly an all-public indication, for example, "Maximum" should be indicated as Absolute...
    http://www.aviation.org.uk/pdf/Aircraft_Performance_Flight_Testing.pdf
     
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  5. arulcharles

    arulcharles Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I am asking why Thyphoon is unsustainable once the fighter is armed.
     
  6. Mr_Breaker

    Mr_Breaker Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Ive yet to see any report by the 6 nations or Eurofighter saying Mach 1.8 is sustained and mach 2 is DASH only. This is my guess but the RAF limit there EFs to 1.8 to increase the engine lifespan even more.. They are working on a shoe string budget (Death to the F35)
     
  7. Zarmax

    Zarmax REGISTERED

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    It means a lot about the expertise of the Typhoon's engineers. They succeeded to design an aircraft which is heavier and considerably less resistant than the Rafale. Moreover, il proves that one can question the validity of the speech of BAE about the Sea Typhoon on the fact that only a few modification is needed to make it carrier capable.

    I don't really see a domain where the Typhoon has really a edge over the Rafale.

    Stealth : RCS about the same, IR advantage Rafale
    A2G : Advantage Rafale considering the dedicated weapons, payload, endurance
    A2A : The aircraft which has the better pilot but :
    TWR better on Typhoon but Lift/Drag not as good as Rafale
    - close coupled canards is a better architecture for maneuvrability
    - METEOR + MICA IR= WINNING COUPLE
    - Spectra > DASS
    - Upgraded OSF > PIRATE
    - Radar : better maximum range for Typhoon but it isn't the main sensor anymore for detection, at least in France. It could be comfortable for the customers to have the "BIGGEST ONE" (for those who may have complex about their size), if one neglicted the fact the farther you emit radar waves, the earlier you are detected.

    And if one add the fact that the Typhoon is not cheaper than the Rafale, the results aren't pleasing.
     
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  8. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    What is WRONG with YOUR English?

    SHOW us ANY source saying Typhoon can SUSTAIN M 2.0?
     
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  9. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    To cut it short the NAO stated that the Typhoon is at risk to meet its specified max mach of 2 at 36k ft due to the problem identified during testing. At speeds greater than mach 1.8 the inzakes start to resonate which may have implications on airframe and engine fatigue. Eurofighter is investigating in that issue as part of the MDC, but it's not known whether the issue has been solved. It's possible that an operational mach 1.8 limit is imposed on the aircraft. The aircraft is capable to reach M2, but doing this regularly may have adverse implications on airframe and engine life times. Imposing the M1.8 limit would rectify the issue. At the end of the day it's not that problematic as the aircraft's cleared max mach for launching AAMs is 1.8 anyway. Max mach cleared with drop tanks is even lower with M1.6. So there is an issue, but it's not a serious show stopper, let alone a critical operational limitation.
     
  10. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Not what one could conclude from Rafale pilots comments saying they can detect a Typhoon 50% earlier than another Rafale.


    NO, every single Rafale pilot agrees with one fact, Rafale is more maneuvrable, have more control authority and pointability, it takes an expert in A2A tactics such as Major Grune to compensate because usually the results goes to the Rafale at equal pilot training like the RAF Squadron and the 1/7 when they meet in Corsica.


    Marginally higher TWR only but also higher wingload.


    Agreed.

    I wouldn't not dismiss ASRAAM that easily close-in but in BVR IR MICAs is a plus.

    No context there.

    Same here.


    I keep saying this.

    Well the picture isn't so rosy, but these are the reason why Rafale won every single evaluation where it was pitted vs Typhoon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  11. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    There is NO evidence that the M 1.8 given by RAF is related to the inlet vibrations issue and if you allege this you're welcome to post a reliable source.

    Such issue IS a show stoper for the simple reason that other aircraft of Typhoon generation doesn't suffer such limitations and that this implies long term fatigue as NAO report indicates...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2012
  12. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The Typhoon is heavier, but it's also larger and has a more complex airframe. It's subsequently not surprising that the Typhoon pays a weight penalty for this. I leave the rest of the mine is better than yours to you fans.
     
  13. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Not everything written on the net can be trusted. The Typhoon can supercruise and sustain supercruise speeds in combat configuration as well. How fast the aircraft can supercruise depends on the load out and altitude in the first place. There are configurations were the aircraft might be able to supercruise, but where it wouldn't be cleared to do so due to structural concerns (light AG configs possibly) and there are configs were the drag would be to high to supercruise (medium to heavy AG configs). In AA configurations with 6-8 AAMs and 1-2 drop tanks the aircraft should still be able to supercruise. Eurofighter confirmed M1.2 at 36k ft with 6 AAMs and a centre line drop tank. That's probably a conservative figure. As other figures I have heared aren't officially confirmed by public sources I'll leave you with this.
     
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  14. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I forgot, if they mean SuperCruise at M 1.5 as said on the Eurofighter website Starstreak i'd belive this:

    This EADS quote was NEVER an achieved performance but a theorical Maximum related to Pressure recovery of EJ200, and was advertised as a FACT by Typhoon supporters when in fact it is not.

    This was confirmed by a BAe engineer giving the clue about it in terms of pressure recovery and real performances of EJ 200 once its TET has been set for the requiered life-span and TBO giving an static Thrust of 20.000 Lbs (Thrust rating).

    In short appart for external load you have diverse factors which are comtping:

    Sweep angle resulting in a Critical Mach which itself results in Maximum Drag and the Mach at which the transonic region starts and ends (Pick of Drag).
    [​IMG]

    Real supersonic drag which involves the rate at which the drag polar lowers as early as the aircraft is fully supersonic.
    [​IMG]

    Above: The drag polar of a F-16, note that it only becomes supersonic at M 1.15.

    Engine Maximum pressure recovery; at some point the engine can no longer recycle the airflow and a phenomene of spillage appears, the air pressure go up the inlets, over the inlet leading edge and creates extra drag.

    Thrust can no longer equal Drag and the Speed no longer increase, M 1.4 seems to be this limit for EJ200 and M88 in DRY power (Thrust ratings).

    To finish, Cruise involves the best ratio Throttle settings/Mach so it shouldn't involve MAXIMUM Dry thrust.

    I think a figure of M 1.4 for Typhoon in A2A configuration with 1 X 1.000 l is a believable figure, its slightly lower theorical supersonic drag, (in view of the sweep angle but not taking Rafale LEX effects on supersonic Drag) would probably be enough to give it a 0.1 Mach advantage over Rafale in supercruise, and we know that a 1.250 l supersonic tanks costs 0.1 M to Rafale in terms of drag, it would reach the same Mach wihthout the tank but 4 X MICAs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2012
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  15. Dare2

    Dare2 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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