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Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by jagjitnatt, Apr 29, 2011.

?

which aircraft do you prefer

  1. RAFALE

    177 vote(s)
    54.1%
  2. TYPHOON

    150 vote(s)
    45.9%
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  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Because the centerline pod will be used for BVR missiles or A2G weapons, while these wingtip weaponpods remains for selfdefence only and it's at least better than the Silent Hornet option, that keeps carrying them externally:

    [​IMG]

    The downside of this Rafale concept however is mainly the tailfin and to some extend the refuelling probe. Btw did you guys noticed that none of these Rafale concepts shows FSO anymore?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. nicolas10

    nicolas10 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Good catch sancho, I hadn't noticed that.

    Nic
     
  3. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I prefer Rafale the way it is. Infact the Silent Hornet when it comes to Reducing RCS has the better idea. Any pylons causes more reflection bouncing off the aircraft, so F18 is like conformal weapons pod. However any pod to lower aircraft RCS when carrying weapons will increase the aircraft RCS when not carrying weapons. Take away the wing tip pods as that will increase drag and add more complexity (increases empty weight) and have a single big center pod that fits close to the belly as much as possible.

    Its almost like they are trying to make an F35.
     
  4. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I dont think ithey will do that, to eject a stealth pod. No one even uses RAM on drop tanks so would they do that on a complex pod with doors and RAM.
     
  5. nicolas10

    nicolas10 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well anyway I don't really believe all this stealth bullshit. I believe more in terrain masking & ECM, and things like DIRCM for self defence.

    Nic
     
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  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    No, stealth fighters are stealth fighters because they are designed as a whole to have a very low RCS, these Silent Eagle, Silent Hornet, Rafale NG concepts on the other hand, are just meant to reduce the RCS of the current fighter. That basically will be done by reducing/hiding the external loads and therfor CFTs or pods are the best options, but they still lack the actual stealth design, nor can they carry as much loads internally, as the F35 can.

    As mentioned above, we shouldn't confuse it with stealth but see it only as RCS reduction features for 4th gen fighter designs. These concepts will help to make the fighters less detectable, but obviously will need other self defence systems as well.
    Btw, my favourite Rafale NG concept is still this one, although I think that shapped fuel tanks will be too costly:

    [​IMG]
     
  7. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    It may decrease the RCS of the aircraft when carrying an external load however it will increase the aircrafts RCS when it flys around normally with a load or not.

    The F15 and F18 stealthier versions do not hide all their weapons. They are just simple RCS reduction features. Also neither F18 nor the F15 supercruise. However the Rafale concepts are attempting to hide all the weapons in closed compartments. The F15 is a big jet yet the Silent Eagle hides like 4 air to air missiles, the F18 Silen Hornet so far carrys one tiny pod.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Thats a big performance spike if you have 4 pods like this:

    [​IMG]

    What do the lower pods carry?
     
  8. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

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    DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE

    Chinese claims that i quote

    I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,

    ans:
    well

    1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
    correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power,

    but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif

    AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module

    well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??

    As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.

    also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
    dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source :lol:)
    in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment
    [​IMG]





    meanwhile

    rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
    Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.






    advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar
    1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)

    2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules
    in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
    Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies



    3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission

    4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
    measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.


    5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further

    6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming

    7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation

    Conclusion
    U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese



    II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES

    ans:
    & thats absolutely B.S
    J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
    Optimized airframe
    [​IMG]

    Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
    http://www.airframer.com/direct_detail.html?company=121563
    Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial







    III)BETTER RAM COATING


    Ans:
    another garbage assumption!!

    rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
    pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
    photoshop pics only.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
    like external refuelling probe ,


    IV)DSI

    ANs:
    yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
    DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade
    & fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.

    But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around
    MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have



    V)136 Kn ENGINE

    ans:
    WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
    meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .:lol:




    infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine

    u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane

    which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to
    J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter


    other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines

    1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no

    2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels

    3) it's better engine TBO

    4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a




    VI)Mach 2 speed

    Ans:
    another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
    signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .

    well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
    the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed:lol:

    VII)20300 m service ceiling

    ANS:
    i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ


    well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's
    kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest

    BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ)
    &
    MICA IR
    bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.

    & for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty
     
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  9. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I dont see J10B as a big threat for any European aircraft, not even a Harrier.
     
  10. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

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    LOLL IF u join any chinese defence forum they would say J10b is superior to any european aircraft including Typhoon :lol:
     
  11. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Haha, tell em to bring it on. I have high expectations from the J20 (mainlly because its a BIG plane) but J10B? Not exactly on my list of great fighter aircraft. They will have to prove it.
     
  12. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    on CDFs,
    Chinese are the Lords and Masters of the Universe :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  13. Skull and Bones

    Skull and Bones Doctor Death Staff Member MODERATOR

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    CDF is for my daily dose of humor. :mrgreen:

    Anyway, back to the topic guys.
     
  14. grond

    grond Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    These Chinese never cease to amuse me ... On omegle a guy told me of a secret exercise published in a Chinese blog where the j 10 b outmaneuvered and outgunned a f 22 in both wvr and bvr...
     
  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    I have low expectations of J-20 for that very reason, as far as AtA combat is concerned.
     
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