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F-35 inferior to T-50 & J-20 in head to head combat - Carlo Kopp

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Optimist, Sep 22, 2011.

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  1. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    They are movable leading edge root extensions or LERX
    yes They can act as canards but are not as good as real canards.
     
  2. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    As per media reports americans have already started work on 6th generation fighter. And we never know what lockheed martin is cooking in skunk works or boeing in phantom works.

    By now your government must have evaluated potential global capabilities in military aviation and need for next gen. Aircraft must have arised given the fact that technologically at par and numerically superior aircrafts will be flying in next decade. And days of uncontested american air supermacy are numbered. So need for next gen aircraft is imperative if you still take national security as serious as you did till now.
    I don't know economic stuff so I dont know how your country will manage but technologically I believe america can roll out a protype in next 15 years.

    Official release by USAF

    https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...0c9c983f85e7952c2adc426b189&tab=core&_cview=1
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  3. Devil

    Devil Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    they can do it but it will be stupid for them being in debt already because of fear more money into defense will become the reason for their fall
     
  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    I have already explained it. TVC only supplements control surfaces, but in certain regimes control surfaces' effectiveness drops sharply, which is where TVC allows for somewhat significant increase in maneuverability.
     
  5. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Thanks.

    To MiG-29 or F-15? At every single one. First, it has more advanced aerodynamics, is statically unstable, and is smaller and lighter, with lower wing loading.

    TVC will allow for better positioning of aircraft during normal flight, increasing range; it will also improve low-speed maneuverability, allowing for better controllability when, for example, landing on carriers (and better air show performance). It will also probably improve supersonic maneuverability, as unlike Rafale, Typhoon is statically unstable, and statically unstable aircraft become stable when supersonic; canards are positioned in front of wing, however, meaning that wing has no effect on them, unlike with tail.

    3D TVC doesn't really improve maneuverability in any flight regime compared to 2D TVC, as when turning, fighter pilots roll aircraft to side, and then pull nose up. Advantages of 3D TVC in combat as opposed to 2D TVC are marginal to nonexistent; however, it does impove safety by allowing better control of aircraft with one engine inoperative, especially so when engines are widely spaced (e. g. Su-27 family of aircraft).
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  6. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    So now you agree that TVC has applications from takeoff to post stall maneuvers to normal cruise to supersonic cruise. And TVC makes your aircraft more maneuverable at any speed, so its better to have it than not.

    Correct me if I am wrong :wink:
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Back to the real world , Russia built 4 prototypes where they managed to copy a few of the features of the F22 an F35 and you have already decided it is superior to US planes that are already in production and will be upgraded and changed time after time to meet future needs.....


    “Assumptions are dangerous things to make, and like all dangerous things to make -- bombs, for instance, or strawberry shortcake -- if you make even the tiniest mistake you can find yourself in terrible trouble. Making assumptions simply means believing things are a certain way with little or no evidence that shows you are correct, and you can see at once how this can lead to terrible trouble. For instance, one morning you might wake up and make the assumption that your bed was in the same place that it always was, even though you would have no real evidence that this was so. But when you got out of your bed, you might discover that it had floated out to sea, and now you would be in terrible trouble all because of the incorrect assumption that you'd made. You can see that it is better not to make too many assumptions, particularly in the morning.”
     
  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    You are. Because TVC may supplement control surfaces, but it is only in certain (and mostly useless) flight regimes that it provides increase in maneuverability - at speeds where control surfaces are fully effective (from Mach 0,23 to Mach 1), TVC gives no increase in maneuverability at all. Now, that is for aerodynamically well-designed aircraft; for F22, it might well increase maneuverability even in regimes where it would be normally ineffective, but I doubt it is going to be improvement over F-15C.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Satya,
    I had posted earlier that use of TVC is avery critical decision during combat. Its use may commit you to a full fledged merge and vl leave no chance for you to run away. You will be forced to fight your way out. Aircombat is called dogfight bcoz here you must be able to attack and run at will. When dogs fight, they attack and disengage and than again engage in fights. They dont fight like lions. Same is done by fighter pilots in close in combat.
     
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  10. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    Kutte ki ladaye ladna hota hai pilots ko, arey bhagwan. brave men.:smile:
     
  11. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Well, most of the scenarios are assumptions The excellent Stealth of F-22 is assumption too.

    Therotically, T-50 (PAKFA) was designed to be superior to F-22 (minus its problems) F-22 was produced first and the Russians had enough time to note all its problems, and then come up with their solution. BASED on this T-50 has an edge Theoretically at least on paper over F-22. Now both these planes are designed as Air superiority planes with excellent maneuverability and ability to dog fight. How well they will fare against each other will be known when T-50 production version evolves.

    F-35 was designed as a strike plane, it really does not come in class of either F-22 or T-50 thus comparing F-35 to T-50 is really unfair.
    The only arguement that you can possibily come up with is that American equipment is superior to Russian but without credible evidence about how the equipment in F-22 fares with those on T-50 that is just pure baseless and speculation.
     
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  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    A gud fighter pilot is one, who shoots and skoots and care two hoots.

    And wild dogs are the most ferocious hunters. They fight in a group and dont stop even if some of the members of the group get killed.
     
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  13. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Sir,
    I understand what you said and agree with your statement, but i think your perception about TVC is based on your experience with Sea Harrier. All what you said is totally apt for a Sea Harrier but as per my understanding, TVC has different role and application on today's fighters.

    TVC act as supplement to conventional control surfaces and provide redundancy to controllability of the aircraft. TVC is simply an extension of control surfaces which work at any speed provided your engine is working and this extra control method means your conventional control surfaces are free to do other tasks. F-22 Raptor or any other modern aircraft has TVC totally integrated to flight controls hence pilot have little or no control over TVN. Whatever the pilot wishes to do at any speed TVC helps him do that. Now if he has to point nose in a free fall or pitch up at supersonic speed TVC helps him do that.

    Use of thrust vectoring does reduce forward thrust marginally but it is often used momentarily hence there is no notable effect on forward speed.

    I am not a fighter pilot yet so I don't know if your statements hold true for MKIs and Raptors too. But what I understand is that TVC helps you push the aircraft to its limits and extract maximum maneuvering performance from it.

    I am yet to understand Picard's logic that TVC increases drag, because if pilot decides to increase the AoA relative to airflow, DRAG will increase irrespective of the manner how you achieved that AoA be it TVC or canards or simply by elevators
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    My exp may be based on SH but what I wrote is based on my knowledge of aerodynamics and a very detailed study of TVC. I that famous video of Rad Flag debrief, It was clearly highlighted that TVC reduces the potential of SU-30MKI to such an extent that F-15 were able to shoot it down in 1 v 1. In F-22, the TVC is must to give it high manouverability in super cruise. But if it uses it in close combat, it too will meet the same fate as SU-30MKI.
     
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  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    I already explained it. With normal engines, thrust pushes aircraft with nose forward; with TVC, nose does not point in direction aircraft is facing. Here's GIF so you understand:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
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