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F-35 inferior to T-50 & J-20 in head to head combat - Carlo Kopp

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Optimist, Sep 22, 2011.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I like John Adams views on Religon the second President of the USA.
    Positive Atheism's Big List of John Adams Quotations

    The Treaty of Tripoli
    Signed by John Adams

    "As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
    "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
    -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, US Consul)
     
  2. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    And "supreme being" in question is usually:
    [​IMG]

    Which is why F35 refuses to die, incidentally. It is also why US don't want effective weapons in their arsenal. Which is why US invade everything they can. So, yeah, money is good servant, but terrible master.
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    So far the PAK-FA has not been built and there are 3 prototypes of the T50 that might after years more of testing and trials might work out to be better the the USA teenfighters and with the teen fighter upgrades even thats in doubt.
     
  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    It is enough for it to outperform US teen fighters. F22 is built in small numbers, is problematic, and really isn't that better than F15, whereas F35 is useless.
     
  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Well good luck your going to need it.


    The F-22 Can Dogfight
    by James Dunnigan
    August 23, 2012

    A recent American Red Flag training exercise allowed F-22s and Typhoons (the latest European fighter) to face off. As expected, the F-22 had the advantage at long range engagements, being more difficult for the Typhoon to spot and usually able to get a long range missile off at the Typhoon before the Typhoon pilots knew it was observed and under attack. But the F-22 managed to hold its own when dogfighting (close range, cannon, and heat seeking missile combat) the Typhoon. The F-22 was not designed with dogfighting in mind. Emphasis was on stealth and things like supercruise (cruising at supersonic speeds).
    While the F-22 was surprisingly nimble in a dog fight, this was considered an emergency situation for the F-22. Designed to move quickly into, or away from, enemy aircraft, the F-22 was not meant to do a lot of dogfighting. But F-22 pilots have to be prepared because enemy pilots know that their chances of victory against an F-22 increase enormously if you can get close enough to force the stealth fighter into a dogfight, if only for a short while before the F-22 sprints away.
     
  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    At least the Indonesians are smart enought to bail on the Russian Planes..
    Maybe they cant afford to wait ten or twenty years.

    Russia Loses To Cheaper And Newer

    August 22, 2012: Indonesia recently confirmed that the six Su-30 jet fighters it ordered from Russia earlier this year (for $78 million each) would be the last Russian fighters to be purchased. Indonesia already has ten Su-27s and Su-30s, and wanted at least 16 of these modern aircraft so they will have a full squadron. Although expensive, the Russian fighters are modern and look great. They are also relatively cheap to maintain. This was all part of a plan to switch from American fighters (ten F-16s and 16 F-5s) to Russian Su-27s and 30s. But used F-16s are so much cheaper than Su-27s that public pressure forced the Indonesian politicians to hang on to the F-16s, and upgrade existing F-16s, an expensive proposition that appeals to corrupt Indonesian officials.
    Although Indonesia wanted to buy 180 Su-27 and Su-30 fighters from Russia they are now also rebuilding their older force of early model F-16s. In addition, Indonesia has ordered 24 used, but modernized, F-16Cs for $31 million each. The ten older F-16s will also be modernized to the same standard.

    Indonesian Air force generals opposed the acquisition of the F-16s because they feared this would lead to a reduction in the procurement of new Russian fighters. The generals believed the Russian fighters are a better match for the F-18Es and MiG-29s that neighboring Malaysia is acquiring and the F-35s that Australia is buying. But the F-16s have a proven combat record that the Su-27s and Su-30s lack. The American fighter also has a better reputation for reliability.

    In addition South Korea and Indonesia agreed last year to jointly develop a new fighter, the KFX. This would be an aircraft with capabilities somewhat beyond the top-line American F-16 (the Block 60, developed for the UAE, as the F-16E).

    KFX development is expected to take ten years and cost $2 billion. Some of that money will end up in the pockets of Indonesian politicians. In the meantime, South Korea hopes to build on the work it did to develop its new T-50 jet trainer. This is a 13 ton, two seat, single engine aircraft that is also available as a combat model (the F-50), which carries a 20mm autocannon and up to three tons of bombs and missiles.

    The KFX would weigh twice as much at the F-50 and have one or two engines, a single seat, and the ability to carry twice as much weight in weapons. The KFX is expected to look more like the Eurofighter Typhoon than the T-50 or F-16. The KFX is also expected to cost $50 million each and have advanced electronics (including an AESA radar). Indonesia will provide 20 percent of the development costs and buy about sixty of the KFXs. South Korea will buy 150-250 of the new aircraft, to replace its current fleet of elderly American F-4s and F-5s. This is an ambitious undertaking and success is not certain, especially where the timeline, budget, and aircraft performance are concerned
     
  7. Devil

    Devil Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    just because indonesians bought American planes with strings attached they are smart interesting i did not know buying american planes makes you smart that's news to me
     
  8. Marqueur

    Marqueur Peaceful Silence ELITE MEMBER

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    Indonesians r smart because AA says so ... pakistan buys american equipment ... AA doesnt think pakistani r smart ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
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  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I think I just said they were smart for not buying Russian Junk. As matter of fact I think they and South Korea are going to build their own jet. I would bet its ready befor the PAK-FA and thats even considering you all have a ten year head start.
     
  10. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Yeah:

    [QUOTE="internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45. - ISNB: 1-880588-91-9 (casebound) or ISBN: 1473-9917.]more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long range. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and "the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more .

    - When this incident was reported on a website frequented by front-line RAF aircrew a senior RAF officer urged an end to the converstaion on security grounds[/QUOTE]

    BBC NEWS | Business | Q&A: What makes the Eurofighter fly?

    Blue sky thinking

    F-22 Fighter Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights: Report - Yahoo! News

    Farnborough 2012: “Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch” Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska « The Aviationist

    20 miles is 32 kilometers. Typhoon can detect F22 from more than 50 kilometers.
     
  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    So basically we need a low observable ac which gets detected by F-22 only at a distance of IRST pick up. That will always force Merge on F-22 and than rest of the big birds can move in for the kill. This is what IAF plans to do by using a combination of LCA and SU-30mki.
     
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Good Job, good debate. There is a differance between detect and target. In any kind of fight if you have any kind of edge and you learn to max that edge you are going to win. That edge is stealth, especially in the future as air to air missiles become more effective and deadly at longer and longer ranges.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The AIM120 needs targetting data from the radar of F-22. That radar is difficult to jam but easily detectable. SO even before F-22 picks up anykind of ac on its radar, the other ac operating on passive mode will know the direction of approach of F-22. In the navy we used to fix position of objects by using bearing only mode, This procedure is called "Running Fix". Basically you resolve the range of an object by use of rate of change of bearing.
    Next is that F-22 will have to ping atleast 3 times in the cycle of targetting. Once to pick up the target and classify it, second to direct AIM120 to the selected target and third for a target update midway thru the flight of AIM120 towards the target before its own radar locks on to the target.
    Once you know the direction in which F-22 is, you can increase your IRST scan in that direction to be ready to detect the missile launch which might be available for only 4-5 secs. After that F-22 becomes unstealthy and any ac can go for full jamming and counter measures to defeat incoming AIM-120 and force F-22 into merge.
     
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  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The F22 and F35 and I expect soon if not now US planes will use what is called Sensor Fusion and the planes closest to the enemy will not have their radars on but be operating in stealth mode.

    Sensor fusion is the combining of sensory data or data derived from sensory data from disparate sources such that the resulting information is in some sense better than would be possible when these sources were used individually. The term better in this case can mean more accurate, more complete, or more dependable, or refer to the result of an emerging view, such as stereoscopic vision (calculation of depth information by combining two-dimensional images from two cameras at slightly different viewpoints).[1]

    The data sources for a fusion process are not specified to originate from identical sensors. One can distinguish direct fusion, indirect fusion and fusion of the outputs of the former two. Direct fusion is the fusion of sensor data from a set of heterogeneous or homogeneous sensors, soft sensors, which is what the tremendous computer powers of the f22 and F35 will be doing.
     
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I do agree but F-22 cant do data transmission with anyother ac except F-22. And even to to do this data transfer, it will need to transmit which will give out its position.
    Lets take a case that one EFT is in air and it has two F-22 against it on each side. The one on the left pings and passes the data to the guy to the right of EFT and is silent all along. The guy on the right fires on the EFT. He will need to ping for firing bcoz while he gets target data on his screen, the AIM120 will need launch guidance and mid course update which can only be provided by the launch platform. It is a safety feature which is built into missiles to prevent them from being guided back to thr own lanch platform.
     
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