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F-35 inferior to T-50 & J-20 in head to head combat - Carlo Kopp

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Optimist, Sep 22, 2011.

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  1. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    So why you don't go and buy that publication? But no, everything that you don't like must automatically be made up. But if some anonymous F-22 pilot came up and said how F-22s were "untouchable", you'd treat that as a respectable source. :coffee:

    No, I'm not.

    F-22 can be visually detected from 10 miles, head-on. So not exactly visual range, but not very far either.

    I don't know what Pk they use right now, but historically, they used Pk of around 0,5 - basically, assuming that enemy won't use ECM, won't maneuver and won't try to jam uplink between fighter and missile (required for mid-flight update) - in such conditions, AMRAAM achieved Pk of 0,46. From what I know about exercises between F22 and F15/F16... either they assume that Pk, or assume lower Pk and give F22s unlimited AMRAAM ammo plus ability to ripple-fire missiles.

    I don't know exactly (wether it is 0,4 or 0,5) but I do know it is high.

    Same reason why USAF created F-105 and F-106 to be BVR-only fighters.

    Besides, Typhoon is excellent dogfighter. Rafale too. Gripen, possibly even better (due to having lower wing loading and being smaller). PAK FA too. It seems that only US is going for BVR-all-the-way, and even that only to convince people that F-35 can actually match advanced Flankers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Seems like a wise way to go considering its been 20 years since a plane was shot down by gun fire from another plane and 80 percent of planes are shot down befor they even know they are targeted. Especially considering at the same time there has been a ten fold advanced in air to air missile technology. I have no problem with US potential enemys concentrating on dog fighting.......
     
  3. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    With radar, targeted aircraft will know it has been targeted. And even without RWR, radar warners in modern aircraft assure that pilot will see missile coming.
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I am not sure just because you detect radar you know you are being targeted. Air to Air missiles can use radar but many dont, some optical and some are IR, or a combination of sensors. F22 uses missiles that are programed to go to a certain point an then ativate its optical sensors, or can be slaved to differant planes.
     
  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    No one can prevent the F-22 radar from being picked up by an RWR. Anybody who says so or believe in something like that is a fool.

    The AN/APG-77 radar, designed for air superiority and strike operations, features a low-observable, active-aperture, electronically-scanned array that can track multiple targets in any weather. The AN/APG-77 changes frequencies more than 1,000 times per second to lower interception probability. Additionally, radar emissions can be focused in an electronic-attack capability to overload enemy sensors

    How do we define low probability of interception?

    A low-probability-of-intercept radar (LPIR) is designed to be difficult to detect by passive radar detection equipment (such as a radar warning receiver – RWR) while it is searching for a target or engaged in target tracking. This characteristic is desirable in a radar because it allows finding and tracking an opponent without alerting them to the radar's presence. Ways of reducing the profile of a radar include using wider-frequency bandwidth (wideband), frequency hopping, using a frequency-modulated continuous-wave signal, and using only the minimum power required for the task. Using pulse compression also reduces the probability of detection, since the peak transmitted power is lower while the range and resolution is the same. Constructing a radar so as to emit minimal side and back lobes may also reduce the probability of interception when it is not pointing at the radar warning receiver. However, when the radar is sweeping a large volume of space for targets, it is likely that the main lobe will repeatedly be pointing at the RWR. Modern phased-array radars not only control their side lobes, they also use very thin, fast-moving beams of energy in complicated search patterns. This technique may be enough to confuse the RWR so it does not recognize the radar as a threat, even if the signal itself is detected. All military EM (EM) emitters, including fighter aircraft, naval ships, and missile systems are designed for reduced electromagnetic profiles for improved stealth.

    In addition to stealth considerations, reducing side and back lobes is desirable as it makes the radar more difficult to characterise. This can increase the difficulty in determining which type it is (concealing information about the carrying platform) and make it much harder to jam. Systems that feature LPIR include modern Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars such as that on the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the electronically steered phased array on the S-300PMU-2 missile.

    So any AESA radar will have these abilities. F-22 is not unique in having these capabilities.
     
  6. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Air to Air missiles have to lock on target by using fighter's radar, and have to be given mid-flight update,again using fighter's radar, because their onboard radar is too weak and easily jammed.

    Missiles using optical and IR sensors are usually WVR missiles.
     
  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Who will keep the target painted when the AAM is in flight without a lock on and will you be not reqd to keep your radar on till the AAM acquires the lock? What if the target during the intervening period of launch and lockon by missile moves in a diff direction?
     
  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Yes, I know that. But many people fell for "LPI" marketing trick, when AESA, by definition, is LPI - as I have explained multiple times.

    And for every measure there is countermeasure; AESA radars may not even be detected by older RWRs, but modern ones can detect them and recognise patterns. Of course, most air forces that USAF is likely to face - MidEastern and African air forces in particular - use outdated equipment which cannot cope with modern radars.
     
  9. s002wjh

    s002wjh 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    unless you know the RF signature of particular radar, it will just look like back ground noise. there is a reason US invest so much in Elint, Sigint system. each radar has specific frequency, amplitude, carrier wave, on top of that modern radar has other method to hid its presence, pulse on pulse for example. so unless the signal is know beforehand or has very high SNR, it will be impossible to detect. in any given time our sky is fill with all sort of EM, some from manmade some from nature, to distinguish between these signature, you got to know what you looking for. and i doubt US made its radar signature to public.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  10. s002wjh

    s002wjh 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    there are alot fire and forget missile that use RF, either active, semi-active or passive radar. typically active.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
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  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Passive homing needs target source, semi active needs the target to be painted and it rides the reflected energy to the target. Active homing has its own source to illuminate and rides the reflected energy.
    one can have combination of these guidance modes. But evry active homing missile needs prelaunch target data and may need mid course update if it does not go active on firing. Most active homing missiles are guided to the point of interception by thr launch platform and than they go active and acquire the target. AIM120 is one such missile.
     
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    AIM120 can use optical or IR, neither sends out any kind of signal.
     
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    That is still under development and will have a shorter range than Active homing missile.
    AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    NCADE
    NCADE (Network Centric Airborne Defense Element) is a program to develop an air-launched anti-missile interceptor missile using AMRAAM components. The NCADE missile replaces the AIM-120's radar seeker with the IIR (Imaging Infrared) seeker of the AIM-9X Sidewinder, and changes the propulsion system to a two-stage rocket. The latter consists of an AIM-120 first stage and a new Aerojet second stage, which can provide a thrust of 0.55 kN (125 lb) for more than 25 seconds. NCADE's airframe, flight control system and aircraft interface are essentially the same as on the AIM-120, making the missile immediately compatible with many existing launch platforms.

    The NCADE missile is intended to intercept short- to medium-range ballistic missiles in the boost, ascent, or terminal phase. To achieve this, the missile is fired upwards by the first-stage motor in a very steep angle. At high altitude, the IIR seeker can acquire a target, and then the missile will use its long burning second-stage motor for the intercept.

    At the time of this writing, the NCADE program is undergoing component tests (propulsion and seeker). No planned timeframe for a test of an all-up NCADE round has been announced so far.

    Interception course stage
    AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in inertial navigation system (INS). This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

    After launch, If the firing aircraft or surrogate continues to track the target, periodic updates—such as changes in the target's direction and speed—are sent from the launch aircraft to the missile, allowing the missile to adjust its course so that it is able to close to a self-homing distance where it will be close enough to "catch" the target aircraft in the basket (the missile's radar field of view in which it will be able to lock onto the target aircraft, unassisted by the launch aircraft).

    Not all armed services using the AMRAAM have elected to purchase the mid-course update option, which limits AMRAAM's effectiveness in some scenarios. The RAF initially opted not to use mid-course update for its Tornado F3 force, only to discover that without it, testing proved the AMRAAM was less effective in BVR engagements than the older semiactive radar homing BAE Skyflash weapon—the AIM-120's own radar is necessarily of limited range and power compared to that of the launch aircraft.

    Terminal stage and impact
    Once the missile closes to self-homing distance, it turns on its active radar seeker and searches for the target aircraft. If the target is in or near the expected location, the missile will find it and guide itself to the target from this point. At the point where an AMRAAM switches to autonomous self-guidance, the NATO "Husky" or "Pitbull" would be called out on the radio[citation needed], just as "Fox Three" would be called out upon launch.

    If the missile is fired at short range (typically visual range), it can use its active seeker just after launch, making the missile truly "fire and forget". The NATO brevity code "Fox 3 close" is used in this situation (the pilot can say only Fox 3, but he can add a distance information: "long" for maximum range shot, "medium" for medium ranges (around 15nm) and close for within visual range (WVR) shot. However, this tactic is considerably risky – the now-active AMRAAM will acquire and home in on the first target it sees, regardless of friend or foe.

    Boresight mode
    Apart from the slave mode, there is a free guidance mode, called boresight. This mode is radar guidance-free, the missile just fires and lock the first thing it sees. When this mode is selected, the HUD displays a circle which represent "sight" of the missile. When the pilot fires, he says "Maddog"[11]. This mode can be used for defensive shot, i.e when the enemy has numerical superiority.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  14. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    There are, but their Pk is even worse than average.
     
  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    LPI radar has energy output about one million times larger than actual background noise.

    It won't be impossible, for reason stated above. And then there is passive radar, which can detect any aircraft at long range.
     
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