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F-35 inferior to T-50 & J-20 in head to head combat - Carlo Kopp

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Optimist, Sep 22, 2011.

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  1. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Then in that case, I am a fool.:mrgreen:


    Let us examine the text you highlighted.

    The issue you have is specific to volume search when the APG-77 is in search mode trying to scan its field of view for targets. Allow me to highlight another section from the link that you neglected to post.
    1. The key fact here is that the APG-77 can scan the entire volume in its field of view in an instant. An instant is a second or fractions of a second.

    F-22 Avionics

    2. Next, the APG-77 is classified as an LPI radar because its main beam is extremely narrow, the main beam is wide enough to arrive at an area of one square centimeter on the targets surface.
    This could be the pilots helmet or an access panel or engine intake OR a passive receiver (RWR).
    The odds of the F-22’s signal arriving over the targets RWR is probably 1 in 200.

    In contrast the beam width on legacy radars such as the F-16 APG-68 is wide enough to cover a large part of distant targets fuselage. The Rafale’s Spectra has three passive receivers, two each below the intake and one on its tail, the EuroFighter has twenty two distributed all over the fuselage. Assume the target is the EuroFighter Typhoon, the odds of the F-16’s emission arriving over the Typhoons RWR is 200 in 200. In the case of the APG-68, its main beam arrives simultaneously at multiple passive receivers located all over the targets fuselage. The targets signal processing computer, records time of arrival, duration, frequency, amplitude and pulse width and compares the signal received by multiple passive receivers for accuracy. A signal that is not confirmed by a majority of the receiver facing the hostile emitter is rejected to reduce false alarm. In the case of the APG-77 (F-22) the signal may arrive on a single receiver or none of the 22 passive receivers for a fraction of a second. The Eurofighters computer will reject this as a false signal. All RWR works on the principle of simultaneous reception at multiple receivers, in the case of the F-22 and APG-77 there is no simultaneous reception. Even in the worst case when multiple signals from the APG-77 arrives at more than one receiver the characteristics of the two signals will differ so widely that the Eurofighters computers will not recognize it as two signals received from the same emitter(F-22). Add to this point 1 above the F-16’s APG-68 needs to transmit for 20 to 30 seconds to scan the entire search volume, the F-16 is continuously emitting while the APG-77 needs to emit for a fraction of a second.

    3. The F-22’s emission can be reliably geo-located using Spectra or RWR only when it is operating in ISAR or SAR mode. In this mode, the F-22’s radar is trying to form a visual image of the target for non-cooperating target recognition.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  2. s002wjh

    s002wjh 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    thats why i said typically active. however there are fire and forget missile, usually the plane lunch the missile at general direction of target, data can be update right after fire or mid course or not at all depend on the missile. look at US aim120 and pheonix missile on f14 all are example of fire and forget.

    so doesn't matter what typic of guidance is the missile, it will require to lunch at general direction of the target to max the hit ratio.
     
  3. s002wjh

    s002wjh 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    do you know how many RF signal are in the atomsphere at any given time that has alot EM emmsion, tons. also the power is for transmit long distance etc, not necessarily mean its amplitude is large. passive radar detect aircraft if it knows the type of emssion/signature of the aircraft its detecting. otherwise no.

    oh and we don't call it passive radar. its typically refer to as receiver. and it only Receiver EM from sources. radar is made up transmitter & receiver.

    passive guidance/receiver require additonal info to homein to the EM emmsion, thats where ELINT,SIGINT collection came in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  4. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    @Death.By.Chocolate
    Forget about the square cm thin radar beam that's impossible at any considerable range amd afaik the marrowest beam of the APG-77 is 2* x 2* at long distances that's a few meters. Anything else wouldn't make much sense anyway as such a narrow beam might not be properly reflected to make use of the radar reflections anyway, if there are any to speak of. LPI does work in general, but it may not work equally well against different receivers. RWR/ESM systems evolve as well. The premier advantage of a true LPI radar is that it won't necessarily transmit in all directions at all times reducing the probability that other platforms than those targeted can detect and track the emissions.
     
  5. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    That is about RWR, not passive radar, and I have already explained that even LPIs signals are far stronger than any background noise.

    [QUOTE[oh and we don't call it passive radar. its typically refer to as receiver. and it only Receiver EM from sources. radar is made up transmitter & receiver.

    passive guidance/receiver require additonal info to homein to the EM emmsion, thats where ELINT,SIGINT collection came in.[/QUOTE]

    I was talking about passive radar in my last sentence, not RWR.
     
  6. s002wjh

    s002wjh 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I was talking about passive radar in my last sentence, not RWR.[/QUOTE]

    if you look at satelite comm, commercial shipping, aircraft, other typic military ship/aircraft, RF from other manmade source, etc etc they all have powerful signal. the receiver need to distinguish these signals from type of radar use on F22, and its very diffcult when you don't know the signature of the RF signal. at any point there are tens thousands RF signal bounce in the atomsphere given off by other manmade objects, all have different signature, all can have a powerful emitter. and the power of these emitter is not correclate to amplitude etc, its use to transmit for long distance. throwing in other things like early warning, shipborane radar etc you got alot things to distinguish.

    you can't just say ooh there is thousand powerful RF signals so there must be thousands F22. you need to ID pulse width, frequency, amplitude, SNR, bandwidth etc etc to know this signal is from certain platform, and you don't know untill you collet data for analysis, thats what ELINT for.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  7. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I meant meter, sorry pregnancy brain :girl_wacko:
     
  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Correct. But in war, most of these won't be in combat area.

    Then why bother with LPI radar at all?
     
  9. TSUNAMI

    TSUNAMI Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Well U r assuming that is was RWR who detected F-22..... I am OK with that. But when RAF pilot says they could not get WVR of F-22 w/o being targeted then it is clear that it was a BVR shot that typhoon managed to get on F-22. So, when F-22 get BVR shot on any fighter it's useless but when another fighter get BVR shot on F-22 it was a kill??

    F-22 managed to score kill's against Rafale and MKI(Which F-15 and F-16 didn't) in exercises which was not internal USAF's would you appriciate that.
     
  10. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    It was impressive that the German typhoons could only get within (no mention of targeting) within 20 miles of the F22. And Grumbrecht said that they maybe targeted but he did not say they were dead.

    The Eurofighter has MAW's that can even detect an IR guided missile (Details are on starstreak: Since the units are active they are able to detect not only radar guided ordnance but also passive weapons such as infra red guided short range missiles. To increase the effectiveness of the system the MAW is also directly linked to the flare launchers allowing an instantaneous response to a local launch.).

    This is FGR4 data of a RAF typhoon, Luftwaffe typhoons lack Eurofighter Typhoon IRST, LWR, Rear MAWs and Towed Decoys.

    Details below are from Kings of Swing.

    ❚ SenSorS
    ECR-90 Captor radar
    » multi-mode pulse-Doppler radar
    » resistant to active and passive countermeasures
    » incorporates IFF with interrogator and an advanced Mode S
    transponder
    » automatically tracks, identifies and prioritises threats
    » interleaves air-to-ground and air-to-air modes
    » air-to-ground mode has multi-target track, scan, raid
    assessment, non co-operative target recognition and close
    range combat sub-modes
    » air-to-ground mode has beam-sharpened ground mapping,
    synthetic aperture radar (SAR), moving target indicator and
    terrain avoidance sub-modes

    Praetorian (DASS – Defensive Aids Subsystem) Components
    Electronic Support Measures (ESM)
    » integrated wide-band radar warning receiver (RWR)
    » quick search
    » locates threat by triangulation
    » range over 60 miles (100km)
    » subsystem analyses signal, identifies emitter, categorises and
    prioritises threat and cues ECM
    » 360º spherical coverage provided by antennas housed in the left
    side wingtip pod and the forward fuselage
    Electronic Counter Measures (ECM)
    » performs onboard and off-board jamming
    » integrated with ESM
    » 360º spherical coverage provided by antennas housed in the left
    side wingtip fairing and the forward fuselage
    » onboard active jamming element housed in left side wing tip pod
    » off-board jamming provided by two expendable towed decoys
    housed in right side wing tip pod
    » decoys towed on 328ft (100m) Kevlar cable with a fibre-optic link
    » ECM deploys chaff and flares from a BOL 180 system
    » individual, sequential or concurrent dispensing modes
    » chaff dispensers carried in the outboard missile launch rails
    » decoy flares are carried in the actuator fairings

    Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS)
    » pulse-Doppler millimetre wave band radar units housed within
    the wing roots and tail cone

    Laser Warning System
    » three sensors; one on either side of the front fuselage and the
    third under the rear fuselage

    PIRATE (Passive Infra-Red Airborne Track Equipment)
    » housed in fairing left of windscreen
    » dual-wave band Charged Couple Device-type FLIR (Forward
    Looking Infra-Red) camera
    » two operating modes
    » scanning IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track)
    » IRST tracks up to 200 air and ground targets while searching
    for others
    » IRST kinematically ranges a target up to 90 miles (150km) away
    » IRST identifies targets up to 25 miles (40km) away
    » imaging FLIR
    » FLIR feeds target tracks into the AIS
    » all-weather capability

    In BVR against a RAF typhoon there is greater chance of a lock on on the F22 despite still lacking AESA (Swashplate :yey:). The F22 still has a high chance of locking onto the Typhoon at long range but will it kill the aircraft, will it launch its missile without giving away its location because simulated firings dont fire real missiles at eachother? I think the Typhoon has a better chance of killing than the F22. In future it will get Meteor.

    Has the F22 got a good protection system against missiles.

    You must be careful what F22 pilots says and others:

    Hostage flies Raptor - The DEW Line
     
  11. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    No he won't!

    Countless kills F-22 raptor scores against other aircrafts can be plainly ignored and few defeats can be used to prove F-22 is an useless aircraft.

    <World champion australia ( in cricket few years ago ) was defeated by bangladesh once or twice But it didn't mean they were bad team, it meant like every other human being they have few limitations which if opponent got to exploit would cost them match or two.>


    All victories F-22 scores are ridiculed by claiming that exercises are highly biased in favour of Raptor as if they know them inside out.

    F-22 is not an invincible aircraft but a very good aircraft. And critics have been struck by its stardom hence every minor fault of it is pointed out and multiplied.

    F-22 is the most loved and hated aircraft at the same time.

    People have spent enormous amounts of time in criticising f-22 for no real reason, while other aircrafts like mig-21, mig-29 etc etc goes compeletly unnoticed as if they are perfect aircrafts.

    I personally don't hate any aircraft but love many for I believe each aircraft is unique in its own way and purpose and no single aircraft can be ace of everything.
     
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  12. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    This bold part is what exactly the Americans did not understand or accept and thats why they came up with F-35.. Thank you.

    Now about F-22, it is a very nice plane, very agile and good tech, and damn expensive.
    So there is always going to be comparison with the plane it is going to replace, in terms of ability and price and cost.

    Now if F-22 scores kills against the Teens, Rafale, Tejas, MKI or EFT, then basically thats the advantage of F-22 tech and it would be as expected, However if any of these plans scores a kill against F-22 then it would be taken notice of talked and analysed.
    The F-22 experts will analyse how it happened and how to counter it, and the opposite camp will think of other possible ways to turn the tables on F-22. The opposing teams start to smell blood and they say "Aha, it can be brought down.. we just have to figure out various other possible ways" and this will push the possible ideas of newer systems, maneuvers and Tactics.

    One of the most famous example is David V/s Goliath, considering that Goliath was physically strong it was taken for granted that Goliath would win hands down. But when David brought him down with one sling shot, maybe David was just trying to take a chance. But then the defeat became a legend, the Palestines as per the story ran away due to loss of Morale, the israelites took the initiative and chased the Palestines out of their ecampment. And the story became a legend, so much so that an unfair match up is touted as "David" vs "Goliath" match, though the "David" is an underdog people still give "david" an outside chance to win.

    So, here F-22 is like a Goliath, undefeated, and when a kill is scored against it, it does become legend.
     
  13. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Rafale got one gun kill against F-22, rest were draws:

    [​IMG]

    which I have already explained - gun fights happen at low speeds, where TVC actually helps maneuverability.

    As for Su-30MKI, it is no surprise F-22 would win; MKI is not much lighter, and has somewhat higher wing loading, while being physically larger in some aspects.

    Actually, no; F-22s dominated BVR and Typhoons dominated WVR. It's Growler that happened to get a kill in BVR against F-22, and I only used it to point out that stealth is not "I win" button even at BVR.

    Typhoon did "manage to get lock on to F-22 from surprisingly long range", to quote report about one earlier exercise (from 2006, I think) but I doubt that "surprisingly long range" was more than 20-50 kilometers.
     
  14. TSUNAMI

    TSUNAMI Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I can accept your point but after just one kill against F-22, people started claiming that 1 Typhoon/Rafale = 2 F-22.
    Same with BVR, most Indian member hear say BVR is useless while countering USAF fighters but when it comes to IAF v/s PAF in 1998 they say IAF had BVR advantage. I am not saying that F-22 is unbeatable but it's not useless.
    BVR may not be much effective 30 years back, but stating that it's useless today and will be useless even after 30 years....simply not gonna work. We can give statics about BVR less kill record, but then why don't you guys accept AA's 0:104 statics.
    Nothing in this world was,is and will unbeatable.
     
  15. TSUNAMI

    TSUNAMI Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Thank You :tup:
    Are you sure, Countless times you have said, Typhoon is superior to F-22 in all aspect.
    Again are you sure because according to you Typhoon's IRST can detect F-22 from 50 km(Don't know in 2006 Typhoon had it) because there is not any question at this close ranges Typhoon's RWR can pickup APG-77 or not it should be 100+ kms.
     
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