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F-35 inferior to T-50 & J-20 in head to head combat - Carlo Kopp

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Optimist, Sep 22, 2011.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Its not the USAs fault that Russia cant build a decent plane that can hold it own in a fight and is obsolete befor its built.

    RUPEE NEWS | Moin Ansari | |The IAF has the worst crash record on the planet. This is a world record. No other Air force has had the ignominious honor of so many crashes on non-battle conditions. The Indian press refers to the Mig 21 as the Flying Coffin, but they are all flying coffins or crematiion discs for the IAF pilots. There are have been more crashes of this aircraft than the entire airforces of more than half the world. The crash of the 500th plane serves as a milestone as the highest number of crashes of any airforce in the world in the history of mankind. The bulk of the Indian Airforce is made up of all this flying junk that succumbs to gravity more then the bellies in the Indian Lok Sabha.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  2. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Yep she is quite cute and furry! But not sure I would want to eat a wet cat! :rofl: But I know what you mean :smokin:
     
  3. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Jesus H. Christ!!!!!!! Not Again!!! Why can't you stop quoting that ridiculous article??? A Pakistani author on a Pakistani Website bashing Indian Airforce. Is it really a revolutionary piece that you can't stop quoting it or are you paid to display your stupidity time and again???
     
  4. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Agreed!


    Noted! Bu are there any plans to get an IRST back on Raptor or not at all?


    I agree that every little problem with the F-22 has been overhyped but isn't that natural when LM is claiming that it is the best air dominance fighter in the world and so on? Even the PAK FA engine flame-out incident at MAKS 2011 has received a lot of Flak as the Russians claim it is a Raptor killer!

    I don't believe it will never be fixed but I hope you will agree that there has not been much progress on that front. What I gave was an assumed scenario.

    Certainly Not! You have 187 Raptors which are far less than the planned numbers. But you can't throw them away. The idea should be to use the Raptors in highly specialized roles in conjunction with the Teen fighters which will be doing the bulk of the work. But I certainly am questioning the maintenance cost vs operational usability!

    In that light, I think the f-15 SE would be really worth working upon continuously and improving it. Damn, thats one awesome fighter!

    Exactly and I agree 100%! But isn't that the idea? To have a great stealth plane that is focused completely on BVR scenarios? For the WVR roles you have awesome platforms like the f15s and f16s
     
  5. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    why do you even bother replying or even reading his posts

    he simply cant do a simple math that
    IAF had a maximum of 768 fighters
    and now its operation about 594 fighters

    how can an air force with a maximum of 768 fighter be flying
    594 fighter when it has crashed 500 fighters

    Typical America IQ :rofl:

    of course new fighters have been inducted almost 182 of them
    but IAF has also retired 146 fighters in past 15 years as well all of them being MiG-21s
     
  6. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    VHF radars are impractical for aircraft, but longer wavelenght - better chance of detecting VLO aircraft. Namely, stealth coating is optimised against standard fighter radars (X-band), but it is ineffective against longer wavelenghts.

    And larger aircraft means higher inertia, larger visual signature, larger infrared signature, larger RCS, higher maintenance costs, usually higher wing loading too... TVC only helps agility at low subsonic and at supersonic speeds... which means it is usually useless... unless you feel like fighting for 5 minutes before going home, or getting missile in the tail.

    He's just...

    Russians put L-band radar on PAK FA, but as far as I'm concerned, Typhoon's solution of IRST + passive radar is superior one... never go active if it can be avoided.

    I would never design a stealth fighter because it simply isn't worth the cost... but if I did, it would be similar to PAK FA - flat, slim, good body lift, but with larger wings. I'd aim for no canards as these crap on stealth, but would instead use LERX + tailless delta + TVC.

    It would be as small as possible to achieve visual stealth too, and would rely on passive sensors - passive radar, radar warners, 360*360 FoV IRST, laser warners... wing loading would be below 350 kg/m2, below 320 if it can be achieved. As for TVC... I'd use it but it would be locked out (as in, not used) unless aircraft was supersonic or its speed was below 150 kts, as in any other regimes it only increases drag with no increase in turn rate; latter speed area is useless anyway as it leaves aircraft vulnerable to enemy missiles, but any stealth fighter is by definition BVR interceptor, and in such scenario supersonic agility is very useful.
     
  7. katherine

    katherine FULL MEMBER

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    How maneuverable would a stainless delta with no canard be if it had 3Dtv? I saw a Boeing naval proposal I'm sure you have seen too. But didn't look like it had movable engine nozzles. And it was tailless. As far as size... I still think a highly agile stealth aircraft would be nice if it was large. J-20 for example. This allows for large internal bays. You would be very effective bvr stealth if you could carry 8 long range AAM plus few short. And once in close range combat......canard, VT, and powerful engines could compensate for size penalty in kinematic performance. Kinda like a stealth SU-35 but stealthy. A large internal bay is a must to me. Reason isn't just large numbers of missiles to fit in it. Most supersonic anti ship or LA missiles are long and have huge diameter. Plus, in the future when companies like raytheon or others who make missiles aren't restricted to weapon bat size, they can make a supersonic ship killer 6.5m long and so on with higher ranges. Best defence for a plane is distance from its enemy.
     
  8. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Moore's Law - computer power doubles every 18 months That means in 20 years computers will be two hundreds of times more powerful and they are now. Thats why they have left so much room in the F22 and F35 to expand the computer systems. But the point is weapon systems are going to much more effective, with ground to air and air to air missiles with ranges well over a 100 miles perhaps even several hundered miles. It is allways going to be the most stealthy plane that survives and the least stealthy plane that does not. Stealth covers many areas, IRST, RADAR, SOUND, EMISSIONS, EHAUST, VISUAL all can be reduced, none can be eliminated Inovative stratgys can be impromised, yes its very expensive, but so is loseing a war.
     
  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Thats what the indians and russians have done. Jointly we have developed L-band AESA and will be fitted to the leading edges of SU-30MKI and T50. L-band AESA has much beter range and bearing resolution compared to traditional fishnet antennas.
    Regarding ma design, I want to keep it simple and very small. a kind of ac which can safely operate between the airspace of our own SU-30MKI and enemy aircraft while remaining stealth and passive detection mostly. No internal weapon bays but recessed and canisterised weapon carriage to achieve same stealth as internal weapons bay. That wont limit the number and size of weapons carried.
     
  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I don't think there's any question the F-22 is capable, of defeating the T-50. The T-50's basic airframe has a some potential. The problem with potential though, is that it must be realized. The question is can they be mass produced and is a skilled labor force in place to support the production run? I find that to be unlikely. I also find it unlikely that a worldwide support network capable of supporting a T-50 integrated deployment is around the corner. Finally, it's been said that the T-50 will trump the F-22 by making it to the merge. In order to do that, it needs to be a VLO (not a LO) design. I get the sense they're already forgone that. Ultimately, I think what we're looking at here represents more of an AWACS killer/carrier strike platform, vs. an air dominance machine...
    Sukhoi claims an RCS value an order of magnitude worse than F-35, two orders of magnitude worse than F-22. It will not challenge the F-22, it will be detected.

    According to the public data and other sources, against an alert F-22 the Russian weapons launched from aircraft will not guide. A Russian system may predict but unless the F-22 target is caught unawares or the Russian operator is plain lucky the F-22 cannot be hit from any current or realistically projected Russian aircraft including by T-50 with its design telemetry. The fusing mechanisms will never get close enough to decide even with volleys. Russia is guessing and desperate placing L-band on the wings. The numbers games, support systems and Russian SAMs are separate but fair matters for consideration. But A2A T-50 vice F-22 is not and will not be a serious contest, somebody will have to produce an F-22 peer before that happens and T-50 ain't it. Considering Indias history of domestic aircraft production and support, of a proposed 5th generation stealth planes years away from production, the information becomes to hypothetical to give serious consideration.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  11. katherine

    katherine FULL MEMBER

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    @AA...can you post your source about sukhoi admitting their ac rcs being worse than f35?.....f35 is a tech marvel but very anemic with stealth. An engineer and I spoke all night at home when the first pictures of T50 emerged. I showed him 4 large printouts of it. He had seen it way before me but pretended ti not know. First thing he said was Kat...if this thing goes into production, it will come down to two things....#1 is pilot training. #2 is AAM capability of either side. Why i asked? He said where the aesa radar on pakfa falls slightly behind that of f22, it's irst will make up for it. Where it falls short on stealth than f22 so very slightly, it will more than make up with its more than slight advantage in maneuverability and kinematics. So where one is superior than other, other makes up for it in another. They are toe to toe and only weapons and pilots will decide. He said these and he added, only way for f22 to come out winner is numerical superiority. But we shut down the production line. and where you fall short?? The engineer knows more than you. Secondly...india has man power us can only dream off. With China's technological might advancing it is driving india into more and more tech savyness and their own advances. Russia and India will produce a deadly team and a deadly weapon. Moskva + brahmaputra?????is that proof enough for you? to make claims as vague as those you make, it would help if you post your sources, i just did, he's a physicist and has a masters in aerodynamic engineer and masters in software engineering. And he's my daddy.
     
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  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    You can feed these Indian fanboys all the horse crap you want dont bother with me, I am not buying any of it.
     
  13. Devil

    Devil Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    who feed you crap fox news
     
  14. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @Katherine
    Now when you know Pak-fa is at par with your frontline fighter F-22 raptor, as a citizen of america what is your reaction about that? Are you concerned?
    What do you think america should do to maintain its dominance in air?
    Is there any possibility that america has already started research on 6th gen. Aircraft to regain dominance in combat aviation
     
  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Tailless delta with no canard but with TVC? Less maneuverable than canard-equipped non-TVC delta in high subsonic speeds, but more maneuverable at low subsonic and supersonic speeds. It would still be more maneuverable than most other wing planforms with TVC, because delta wing naturally creates vortices at high AoA... LERX only makes them stronger.

    Large size and agility don't really go together. Larger aircraft means more mass to move around, more drag, and usually higher wing loading too.
     
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