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F 35 JSF v/s Dassault Rafale

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picdelamirand-oil, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    F 35 JSF v/s Dassault Rafale

    Due to the MMRCA program the merits of Eurofighter Typhoon v / s Dassault Rafale was discussed at length on this site,. These two aircrafts represent the most advanced technology of Europe in this field. They are technically equal but meet different operational requirements.

    The problem for the Typhoon is that the French are the only ones who have identified needs that correspond to the 21th century.

    Typhoon is a very good plane that filled its specifications but now it must evolve to the specifications of the Rafale.

    To facilitate the export of the aircraft, the program partners want to make believe this is easy. But if it was easy, French would not have left the program, they would have managed to get a satisfactory compromise.

    From my point of view, F 35 JSF and Rafale meet closer needs, with similar technology, but with different doctrines of use. Their comparison therefore seems very interesting.

    Joint Strike Fighter Stealth Capabilities

    This paragraph comes mainly from: Assessing Joint Strike Fighter Defence Penetration Capabilities

    The Joint Strike Fighter is an unusual airframe design, since it departs from many of the well established ground rules in stealth shaping, established in other designs such as the F-117A, B-2A, A-12A, YF-23A and F-22A Raptor. Stealth shaping is widely regarded to account for the first hundredfold reduction in aircraft radar signature, compared to non-stealthy designs of similar size, with application of lossy and absorbent materials used to further reduce the signature where feasible.

    The first major departure from established shaping conventions is the angular or aspect dependency of the Joint Strike Fighter’s radar signature.

    [​IMG]
    Diagram 3.

    [​IMG]
    Diagram 4.

    Diagram 4 summarises the qualitative comparisons of Joint Strike Fighter shaping aspect and band dependency, with green denoting performance which qualifies as Very Low Observable, yellow as Low Observable, and red as order of magnitude closest to conventional reduced signature aircraft designs. The aircraft performs best in the X-band, and Ku-band, with performance declining through the S-band with increasing wavelength. In the L-band the axisymmetric nozzle design no longer produces useful effect, and the length of the inlet edges sits in resonant mode scattering rather than clean optical scattering, degrading performance. In the VHF band (~2 metres) Joint Strike Fighter airframe shaping has become largely ineffective.

    The aircraft will have a credible ability to defeat S-band search/acquisition radars, X-band engagement radars and X/Ku/K/Ka-band missile seekers only in the narrow ±14.5° angular sector under the nose. As the angle relative to the threat radars increases, the unfortunate lower fuselage shaping features will produce an increasingly strong effect with a cluster of “flare spot” peaks around 90° where the longitudinal panel and door edge joins produce effect.

    In the narrow ±14.5° angular sector under the tail, the design will produce best effect against X/Ku/K/Ka-band missile seekers, but less useful effect against X-band engagement radars due to their higher power-aperture performance. At S-band the nozzle exterior signature will become increasingly prominent, leading to loss of effect in the vicinity of the L-band.

    It is clear that these design choices were intentional and no accident. By confining proper stealth shaping technique only to the forward fuselage and inlet geometry, the designers avoided incurring the development, and to a lesser extent, the associated manufacturing costs of a fully stealthy design, with the YF-23A and F-22A presenting good comparisons.

    This is an acceptable optimization if the intent is only to defeat an isolated individual low power aperture pop-up short/medium range mobile battlefield air defence system in the category of the SA-6 Gainful, SA-8 Gecko, SA-9 Gaskin, Chapparel, Crotale, Roland, SA-11 Gadfly, SA-15 Gauntlet, SA-19 Grison or SA-22 “Greyhound”. It is a completely unsuitable optimization for a wide range of other threat types which are in service, and the associated characteristic engagement geometries. It is also a problematic optimisation where short/medium range battlefield air defence systems are deployed in a coordinated manner.

    The most generous description of the stealth design used in the Joint Strike Fighter is that it is 25% VLO, in the nose sector, 25% LO in the tail sector, and 50% “reduced observable” in the beam sectors, with a strong threat operating frequency and angular aspect dependency in stealth performance. It is clearly not a stealth design in the same sense as the F-117A Nighthawk, B-2A Spirit, YF-23A and F-22A Raptor, and to label it a “VLO design” is at best a “quarter-truth”, quite indifferent to the physical realities of the design and the threat systems it will need to defeat in future conflicts.

    LM declares the RCS of F35 the size of "Golf ball size" (about 0.0015 m2) in 2000 (now it may be around 0.005m2, because LM has done lots of downgrading to reduce the cost).

    Rafale Stealth Capabilities

    Dassault reject the “fourth-generation” label and assert that, while Rafale fighter does not match the F-35's stealth, it can rival its effectiveness and survivability at a competitive cost.

    To achieve this goal Dassault combine four factors:

    • RCS reduction of the most reflective parts of the structure
    • Development of passive detections
    • EW suite capable of jamming and decoying
    • Terrain following system

    Development of passive detections and EW suite will be seen in the corresponding paragraphs in order to compare with F35.

    RCS

    The minimal RCS of Rafale, according to Dassault engineer (1/10~1/20 of Mirage-2000's frontal RCS), should be 0.05 to 0.1 m2 class.

    Gripen was declared by Saab 1/5 of the frontal RCS of F/A-18 C/D, 1/3 of the frontal RCS of F-16 C/D block40/42, and 1/2 of the frontal RCS of the MIRAGE-2000". Or F-16 C/D block40/42 RCS is 1.2m2 which translate in 0.4m2 for Gripen, 0.8 m2 for MIRAGE-2000 and 0.08m2>Rafale>0.04m2.

    The best estimate for Rafale seems to be 0.06 m2 with a max error of 0.02 m2. This is 10 times bigger than F 35 which gives a detection range roughly 2 times bigger for radar with the same performance.

    Composite materials use

    Rafale makes extensive use of radar-absorbent material (RAM) in the form of paints and other materials. RAM forms a saw-toothed pattern on the wing and canard trailing edges, for instance. The aircraft is designed to, so that its untreated radar signature is concentrated in a few strong "spikes," which are then suppressed by the selective use of RAM.
    Rafale use a high amount of composite materials like you can see here:

    [​IMG]
    Titane blue, Kelvar green, Composite Orange

    In fact, 75% of Rafale surface structure and 30% of its mass are made of composites.

    Besides, the high amount of composites and RAM materials, ducted air intakes, Rafale also has a sawtooth design feature all over the airframe and even in the air intakes. These sawtooth are made of RAM materials and meant to scatter and absorb radar waves:

    [​IMG]

    All stealth fighters beginning with the F117 used similar sawtooth design features with the same aim of scattering the radar waves and to reduce the RCS.

    Terrain following system

    The Rafale is fitted with a multisensory terrain-following system operating at the pilot's choice from the radar or from a digital terrain database: the RBE2 radar can detect even unreported obstruction and the digital terrain database does away with telltale emissions where total covertness is required.

    There is also a radar altimeter available in nap-of-the-earth flight over water or flat land. Data fusion is part of the system to cross-check the sensors before feeding their data to a flight path computation module whose development has been carried out per the exacting standards of safety-critical engineering.

    The relevant expertise does not come overnight and actually builds on the lessons learned of the Mirage 2000N and D in service with the French Air Force.

    The terrain-following function integrated with the Rafale's flight control system actually flies the aircraft closer to the ground or the sea than would be reasonable for the crew flying in manual mode - and it does so with a demonstrated safety level even in blind weather. Rafale is designed to fly a terrain-avoidance/threat- avoidance profile at 5.5 g and 100 feet in altitude. (http://weapons.technology.youngester.com/2009/09/frances-rafale-is-part-of-set-of.html)

    It remains a valuable help to the crew even when flying higher above ground level, allowing them to concentrate on other mission tasks without the burden -and energy consuming anxiety - of maintaining terrain clearance during hi-speed/low-altitude legs.

    With its high thrust and low wing-loading, the Rafale is equally at ease flying at treetop height: its aerodynamics - delta wing and canards - is ideal for low-level agility and ride quality, and its canard fore-planes do not block downward visibility. Flying low and fast in the clouds then becomes a real option: high altitude SAMs are no longer an issue since you fly under the radar coverage, and short range optically-guided air defences are powerless against a foe they cannot see.

    Other short range air defence systems can be dealt with by the Spectra EW suite capable of jamming and decoying. Speed is part of the game too, since air defence engagement zones are dramatically reduced against transonic targets, even in clear weather.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
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  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The dragon gets a bear hug - The Hindu

    China’s acquisition of the Su-35 will also question the wisdom of India’s plan to buy the French Rafale, the expert said.

    “The sale of Su-35s to China will shoot down the value of the Rafale for India,” Mr. Makienko, who is deputy head of Russia’s top defence think tank, Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Hindu.

    “The Rafale will stand no chance against China’s Su-35,” the expert explained. “The Su-35’s Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale’s Snecma M88.”


    The Rafale is a fourth generation and nothing is going to make it stealthy. coating does not make for stealth near as much as composite.

    Composites Machining for the Lockheed Martin F-35 | Custom Carbide Tools

    No other county has this technology.

    While the Rafale is one of the more modern combat aircraft in the world, development of the Rafale was delayed by technical problems and shortages of money. Entering development just as the Cold War ended meant that there was little enthusiasm for spending billions on an aircraft that would face no real opposition. But, facing the need to eventually replace all their aging Mirage fighters, development did get restarted, creating an aircraft superior to the American F-15s and F-16s, very similar to the F-18F but inferior to the F-22 and F-35. The first prototype of Rafale was shown in 1986, and the aircraft should have entered service in the late 1990s. But there were delays, until the aircraft entered service in 2000 and its a good fighter but nothing special and its certainly not on the par of the F22 or f35 or even the SU 35 the Chinese are buying.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  3. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    who ever this writer is
    I can say that he is an IDIOT !!!

    Su-35 is a Air Dominance fighter
    while, Rafale is a Omni-Role Fighter
    which IAF has acquired primarily for Ground attack Role
    and NOT air dominance, for that we have the Su-30 MKI

    Besides Russia has denied any sale of Su-35
    its only the media that creating this HOAX.

    Its not the 1st time we are hearing it,
    Russia wont sell them just to be reverse engineered
    Russia demands an order of at least 96 or more
    while china just wants 24.

    India is getting the Super Sukhoi for its Su-30 MKI
    which will allow it to retain its edge over China

    so even if Russia sells the Su-35s, it wont give China any edge

    we also have PAK FA in line, so that EXPERT
    needs to get his brains examined
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
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  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    That is waste of good aircraft, considering that one-for-one there is no air superiority aircraft superior to Rafale.
     
  5. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    I have doubts about that !!

    but still Rafale is a formidable foe in any Air to Air engagement
    be it any fighter against it, anyone taking it lightly isn't going home.

    Su-35 is a dedicated air dominance fighter,
    Rafale will have its fair share of trouble dealing with it
    be it the Sensors or the AESA radar of the Su-35

    Super Sukhoi is planned to be superior even to the Su-35s
    so in the IAF, Super Sukhoi will remain the finest Air dominance fighter
    until the advent of the PAK FA
     
  6. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Whoever told you that clearly doesn't know what they're talking about.
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Tags: Su-27M, Su-27, Su-35, Rosoboronexport, Viktor Komardin, China, Russia



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    MOSCOW, September 7 (RIA Novosti) – Moscow and Beijing expect to seal the deal on the sale of Russian Su-35 fighter jets to China in 2014, a senior official at the Russian arms exports monopoly said Saturday.

    “Talks are ongoing, but the deal is unlikely to be sealed before the year’s end. The signing will most likely take place next year,” said Viktor Komardin, deputy head of the state-run Rosoboronexport.

    “Chinese negotiators are discussing the technical outlook of the plane,” Komardin told RIA Novosti.

    He did not say how many multirole fighter jets China wants to buy, but added that Beijing is also interested in purchasing ordnance for them.

    “There will definitely be integral weapons, but we’ll be discussing external weapons,” Komardin said.

    “They want new types of weapons that we have, including from the [Moscow Region-based] Tactical Missiles Corporation. But that’ll be a separate deal,” he said.

    Negotiations about China’s purchase of the Russian Su-35 – a deep modernization of the Su-27M, the current staple of the Russian Air Force – were opened in 2010, but frozen last year.

    However, Rosoboronexport head Anatoly Isaikin told a group of Chinese pilots during the MAKS airshow in Russia last week that they will “soon” have the opportunity to fly the Su-35.
    China to Get Russian Su-35 Jets in 2014 ? Rosoboronexport | World | RIA Novosti



    http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20130626000088
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  8. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Robosoronexport usual fancy claims... See Malaysia etc. Btw it seems that malaysian MRCA is delayed.
     
  9. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    SU 35 is on the same league as SU 30 MKI. But SU 30 MKI is improved by Indian and Western systems (LITENING targeting pod, Elta EL/M-8222 ...).

    But if you consider the couple MKI/Rafale nothing come closed to it's efficiency. One example the Tarang programmable threat library could be upgraded with the SPECTRA one. With this two aircrafts you can build very sophisticated tactics.
     
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  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    "Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed."

    F-15 Eagle - Military Aircraft
     
  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    :sarcastic:
    And what would be the result of the simulation if it was done by Dassault instead of British Aerospace?
    :oops: :cheesy: :LMAO:
     
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    If they were done by Dassault an accordion would have won :dumbhorse:
    Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion.

    Norman Schwarzkopf

    Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/normanschw455011.html#stG02hA8iyeHh5bz.99

    In a March 2012 statement external link, Dassault CEO Charles Edelstenne threw its export issues into sharp relief. Translated:


    “When one is in a country like India which is an open country and in which Americans do not have the same weight as countries that are their private hunting preserve, we have a chance. And this chance, we got it… The market for the Rafale, it is countries that do not want or can not buy or American countries who want to have a second source while buying American. Now all countries, except two, where we lost, were countries that did not fit this definition.”

    Despite Dassault’s rosy projections for the global fighter market, therefore, this difficulty in finding foreign orders has choked expected investments, and started to feed back into platform modernization issues.
    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/frances-rafale-fighters-au-courant-in-time-05991/
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  13. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
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  14. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Except that without France USA amy still be a British colony...
     
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  15. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It is a statement which reduces respect for its author
     
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