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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    He needed two terms. He was/is very critical.
     
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  2. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Not really. (french point of view)
     
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    He is good for France also.
     
  4. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It's appalling stupidity. Does a need exist for such an aircraft? Saying it differently, does IAF or IN have written an operational need that explain the start of a new design. And when such a plane will be ready to be inducted? :(
     
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  5. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    He said been evaluated only, why are you getting nervous.
     
  6. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @Picdelamirand-oil, you need a change in prism - Its all positive for Dassault let me explain why - Well he also said that not only more Rafales be bought offhand, but also Rafales in MII order too.

    So for Dassault, effectively, Mk2-S be another MII, similar to Rafales MII - only difference it be a aircraft using indian inputs & having some indian developed tech components integrated too.

    If Dassault thinks logically, its current is Rafale. its future be probably 5+ gen future French/German stealth aircraft - Mk2-S cant overtake or become a future stumbling block. Only another cheap option to sell post Rafale era & capture low end market. (see all good points from Dassault prospective)

    Infact it cant be more good for Dassault - not only Rafale MII come in numbers, India will also buy offhand Rafales directly from France, and france can use the offset to build Mk2-S (financed to build a plane) but also post its development, for low end task, expect India to buy this another line of Mk2-S (or Rafales mini too)

    Lastly by building a MK2-S in India, Dassault effectively will be treated as an Indian entity, and in all future generations would mean Dassault will have some role to play & be part of this ever Increasing Market.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  7. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    with rafale or any other mrca coming in large numbers, do you think there is any need of mk-s...mk2-s will enter service in same time period as of amca ..i dont think there is any need of 4.5 gen fighter at that time and even IAF dont have funds for development of 3 twin engine aircrafts program
     
  8. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well no matter, how many Rafales, Amca, Su-57 etc become part of Indian market, catering to a top segment (it cant cater all) - there always be roles for low cost aircraft for everyday operations & make numbers. By 2050-60, mostlikely we need airforce of Double numbers, than what currently China is & China probably still be more than double or triple India - do the maths.
    Besides with high composites, small size & spectra combined Mk2-S will probable be much much more than average 4.5 in combat effectiveness...

    India will always need a Maruti plant, will Dassault be the Suzuki is the only question or someone else?? (today Suzuki earns more revenue from India operations, than Japan & worldwide combined).
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  9. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    yes i didn t buy the Kashmir pressure story..

    i could only believe industrial pressure .. more so.. our Indian companies & bureaucratic un cooperativeness
     
  10. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    If it is based on two Kaveri engine (2 x 8 to 9 tons thrust), it's a kind of just AMCA , no?

    I don't understand how India can move from a light SE plane to a medium TE. Does it mean the first definition need was not the right one ? If true that stopped a foreign SE MII initiative.
     
  11. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    AMCA most likely be like French/German 5+ gen plane with stealth profile with internal weapons,
    while Mk2-S on LCA platform, will be more like a Rafale but mini, external bombs, atbest 4.5++ gen, with high composites, small size (for numbers, if accepted by Indian Air Force)

    AMCA, Rafales, SU57 be main premium segment - LCA MK1A & MK2S for low cost numbers makeup
    (mk1a & Mk2s can eat into SE requirement for low cost plane for numbers makeup, since SE F16, Gripen E,etc be more costly than these platform).
    In any case Rafale MII most likely follow SU30MKI pattern of production - continuing for lot of years.
    Its more a question of Mix which economy can sustain & yet have sufficient numbers at 7% growth Indian Economy size is doubling every 10 years. (that is 8 time in 3 decade at current speed, if we can move at 10% which may be possible then 2 Decade, as economy grows, low cost plane requirement gradually decreases to make numbers)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  12. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    With the way Tejas is progressing, are we still going to go in for SE Make in India? (F16/Gripen) If MK2 is going to be a twin engine jet, then does it make sense to have MK1A + (F16/Gripen) as SE Jets? Given the fact that F-16 is no good when it comes to high altitude warfare and would not come with any technological benefits + Operational US Limitations + ( Just Screw Driver Tech). On the other hand Gripen E will only be inducted in the IAF after 2025, the same timeline when MK2 wil be inducted. ( There is also possibility that MK2S could be a far more superior plane to Gripen E with Indian + French + Israeli +Russian Tech).
     
  13. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Read below post - SE is most likely history, so its progressing if not SE then what else or Gripen E
    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-219#post-584018
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  14. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What does this mean? @Hellfire @vstol jockey
     
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  15. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    LOL, I could've predicted that- the ADA team has worked incredibly hard and designed the LCA over the years to perform exceptionally well at high altitudes. IIRC the F-16 (and most other MMRCA contestents) performed miserably during the orginal MMRCA trails in Leh.

    Shocking that the OEM would still stumble at this most basic of requirements, the IAF's aversion to the F-16 is being validated every day that passes and the point you make about the failures being on the record is important- it will make it impossible for the GoI to justify the purchase of unsuitable equipment that it knew was unsuitable from the outset.


    Sweeeeet, the only real logic to waiting for the MK.2 is if it has two engines IMHO otherwise there won't be a huge performance delta between the Mk.1A and Mk.2- not enough to justify the delays in induction anyway.

    The "Mini-Rafale" concept is something I have been suggesting for a long time, it just makes sense and if the Kaveri (with the M88 core) is going in the back of it then it'll already have a strong French connection and Spectra EW built in to the Mk.2-S would be a no brainer.

    This is the next logical step, time to start leveraging offsets and off the shelf procurement to create capacity at home- there was ZERO cross over between the MKI and LCA MK.1, let's hope there is MASSIVE cross over between the Rafale and LCA MK.2.
    There's no reason why this can't happen along with the Mk.2(S), MK.1A is now an entirely seperate project and ADA/HAL will continue pushing its development independant of anything that happens with the Mk.2.


    Safran assistence is already flowing in to GRTE for Kaveri, this much I know for certain. Fabrication hasn't occured yet but it doesn't take long to do so, the aim is to begin ground trails of the Kaveri engine (with a M88 core) in the next 12-16 months.

    There's no reason why Parrikar's demands won't be met.
    We've talked about this before bro, that would mean holding back the MK.1A's production by at least 4-5 years.
     

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