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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The greed of the French according to the Indians is endemic, it can not be sudden. :innocent:
     
  2. W@rwolf

    W@rwolf FULL MEMBER

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    Not really, as part of the Mk.II tender, they promised to transfer only 50-60% of the technology. They proposed to share critical technologies like high melting point alloys and SCB manufacturing ONLY if we select the F414EPE for AMCA, which is yet to happen.
    With the news of GTRE-SAFRAN partnership to develop a new engine in the Kaveri family, the F414 proposal has lost its relevance.

    I don't think the US will be willing to transfer tech for the F110 engine (dunno why you mentioned the shifting of F110 production to India, because that's never gonna happen) What we will get is assembling the engines from kits provided by GE like how it's being done for the F404.

    If we don't include the clause to integrate Indian weapons on these jets during the initial negotiation itself, we will get squeezed when we attempt to do it down the line. With all the projects that are currently under development, it is assured that we will have homegrown options for almost all type of missiles/bombs currently being bought from abroad, within the next decade and a half. So it's only logical that we have the permissions to integrate them on the jet as they become operational.
     
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  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    That's my point, because that the total value, but doesn't necessarily include the core technology. The Swedish Volvo RM12 engine is based on the GE404 and has around 30% indigenous parts, while the rest is licence produced or integrated in Sweden.

    Actually the opposite is the case, we have currently 4 platforms under consideration, that could be powered by a GE414, so pushing for the EPE with credible tech transfer, would be the best way to go wrt the US.

    Because the plan is to move the F16 production line and provide most of the future spare supply from India, which then should include athe least engine production as well. We won't get AESA radar production to India for sure, but the F110 is not new technology and they don't need the he production line in the US anymore. That's in fact the only critical tech the F16 actually offers.

    And that's the point, none of them is ready any time soon. What we have to negotiate now, would be the addition of Indian / custom data links and EW, to make US fighters compatible to our fleets and increase the Indian content right away.
     
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Greed does more damage to the greedy always. Do not try and force additional Rafale from France. Go for MII and force it as MII orders. I am giving you a billion dollar advice for free.
     
  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Too bad the billions of dollars are not for me.
     
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  6. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    @vstol jockey

    Can you elaborate on the greed part......Thanks in Advance.

    F-18 would not be a good option at all, it has a lot of problems and its radar is also an under performer, as per USAF pilots reviews. It is important that India endures and goes in for the PAKFA. The Americans have no business interfering and offering biased and unsolicited advice on the PAKFA/FGFA Project. With no critical tech coming in from the US, it makes all the more sense to go in for the FGFA project as Russia will be sharing IPR's with us. This would give our aviation Industry and HAL a lot of know how and would also help the development of the AMCA project. If India is serious about being independent and self reliant in building jets and have a cutting edge aviation ecosystem in the future, then we need to go in for the FGFA, irrespective of the cost or the number of changes that have to be made to the PAKFA. PAKFA might not have the aerodynamic shaping or an AESA radar as capable as the F22 or F35, but the sensors and technology used is light years ahead of whats on the US fifth generation jet. PAKFA is still a jet under development and by the time it matures, it will be light years ahead of the US jets.


    Only god knows what other F-35 sub systems the US is talking about. The f-16 with its radar derived from the f-35 is a joke, with limited detection range and an engagement range of 85 kms, it offers no advantage to the IAF. Even PAF will have a more capable radar with 30-35% more range compared to APG-83 in their JF-17 block 3. With no IRST it will be at an even more disadvantage with no substantial passive sensors to detect enemy aircraft's. Perhaps @PARIKRAMA , Sir, can shed more light on the other F-35 subsystems that the US are willing to integrate on the F-16.


    It is like India will be putting all its eggs in one basket. If they go in for the F-16 and F-35, while cancelling the FGFA project. This would mean that we would be totally at the mercy of the US and would be nothing more that slaves guided by US interests and policies.

    Hence the SIGNIFICANCE of going in for the RAFALE make in India and FGFA derives even greater IMPORTANCE, if we want to avoid being a puppet in the hands of the US.
     
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    There is no relation between FGFA and all these other projects.

    The specs of FGFA were frozen a long time ago. Everything that's happening now is between MoD and Russia, ie, costs, ToT guarantees, export order guarantees etc. Meaning, nothing to do with IAF and Russia, ie tech specs.
     
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  8. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    Completely wrong, it's well established that western avionics and electronics are better than Russia's. Especially sensorfusion and datalink.

    F-35 main advantages are avionics/electronics/sensors. PAKFA, is faster and better agility than F-35. AKA performance.

    You managed to flip the actual pros and cons of the planes. PAKFA is the aerodynamic plane with the weaker emphasis on stealth. Russia's airplane design philosophy focuses more on aerodynamic planes, while USA focuses more on avionics and now + stealth.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    That depends on the available sensors!
    An F16 B70 for example has just RWRs and the radar, while a Mig 35 has RWRs, MAWS, LWRs, IRST and an AESA, so who will have the better sensor informations (marketed as sensorfusion)?

    The same goes for Su57, that sets a new benchmark on number and variety of sensors, check @Gessler s infos in the Su57 thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  10. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    Beyond that aesa radar will be added for the f-16 and lockheeds new legion pod has already been selected to provide IRST to f-15s. Easily addable to f-16s. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/legion-pod.html

    I would hope the mig35 has more sensors than the F-16, it has a 4 decade head start.


    And I've seen gesslers post. Great information. However analysizing pictures for avionics can only go so far.

    Anyways. I was mainly correcting the misconception around aerodynamic designs/avionics philosophy.

    PakFA is the plane designed for aerodynamics relative to the F-35.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  11. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Unbelievable! Our love for Khichdi cant be put into words!

    If we get a spaceship from Aliens we will still be looking for some Israeli upgrade for some system, some Russian missile on it and announcing new project for HAL to produce something(no matter what,anything,could be own spaceship!) for it just so that we can say this subsystem "fully indigenous".
     
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  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Like most advanced fighters, but it also was designed and developed for high sensor and EW capability, beyond the F35.
     
  13. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    Sucks that it fails in that aspect though. :basketball:

    Anyways, a bit off topic.
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Based on your believe, not ontte available informations. Just as any European fighter is far more advanced than US 4.5th gen fighters in terms of EW and avionics.
     
  15. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    Rafale is better than any US 4.5 gen for sure.

    Eurofighter? I'm not ready to concede that one. The danes marked it lower than the superhornet. I'd probably rate the newest F-15, still over the typhoon.

    upload_2017-9-25_16-30-52.png

    Gripen E? too early to tell.
     

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