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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    This is simply propaganda. There is no truth to any of this.

    The Soviet Union introduced ESA radars on fighter planes 25 years before the Americans did.
     
  2. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    Soviets had a tech parity or advantage in many areas until the 80's and then it all came down. Russia has never recovered since.

    I don't really think I'm wrong on the design philosophies. The post cold war analysis on the mig29/su-27 vs the f-15/f-16 confirms it.

    https://theaviationist.com/2015/04/08/mig-29-in-close-air-combat/

    considering this is as close we're going to get to real analysis, unless USA and Russia go to war I'd like to think it's accurate.
     
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  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    It was purely propaganda. If the Russian jets did not demonstrate superlative performance in Western air shows, then the propaganda would have simply been "The Russians suck overall".

    The Russians made more aerodynamic jets and they have focused on technology as well.

    For example, the Mig-29 wasn't better than the F-16 and F-15 because of its aerodynamics, it was superior due to the technology used, namely the 3rd generation Archer and the HMS combo. Another point the West won't admit is the Mig-29 used a far superior BVR missile, which is true even today, than the Americans did. Even today, the Mig-29's BVR weapons are better than pretty much anything the West has, with the exception of the Meteor.

    The original Soviet Mig-29 was a work of genius. It was a pseudo-unmanned jet. It could take off and land without pilot input, it could fly around on its own. The only thing it couldn't do was create a firing solution for its BVR weapons or dog fight, that's where the pilot came into the picture. If it wasn't for that, the Mig-29 would have actually been an unmanned jet.

    The Soviet shuttle Buran was completely unmanned during flight.

    Read a bit about it.
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/spa...tually-build-a-better-space-shuttle-16176311/

    The Soviets were comparable to the west when it came to high end technologies.

    Yeah, they were behind in some aspects, like the quality of the radar, but the Russians never cared about quality, they were more concerned about reliability and other functional aspects. But the West were behind in some aspects as well, like aerodyanmics.

    The Mig-31 and Su-27 were extremely advanced. Even today we do not know the actual configuration of the jets from Soviet times. Even the Su-27s were supposed to get ESA radars in the late 80s, that's more than 15 years before the USAF got it.

    A huge chunk of the Soviet military was supposed to be unmanned. Unmanned jets, unmanned tanks etc. The Russians are going back to this now.

    The only real technology the West were ahead in was engines, and it was quite marginal because, again, the Russians did not focus a lot on quality. But here, they really suffered for it.
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    We have talked about this before and I told you that your knowledge about the EF is outdated.

    In some areas it is too early for sure (flight performance, final load configs), in other we already know that it will have advantages (EW, weapon pack, avionics, costs...) . In fact having Rafale for strategic roles and Gripen E in larger numbers for the bulk of multi role missions, would be a great complementing mix for IAF.
    Gripens with Arexis escort jammers and SEAD capability, paving the way for a Rafale deep strike package, would be hard to beat for our opponents.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
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  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The French are keen to ensure a follow on order of at least 36 more rafale from their own facility in France before they start the MII. This is their greed. The net result of this game will be that whoever is chosen as the MII for SE fighter will eat in to the orders of Rafale. Another alternate theory is that French are only giving lip service to MII and their actual intention is to keep Rafale line in France only. Whatever be the truth. MOD is not very keen to order more Rafale directly from France if they are going to be considered for MII. Even PM is strictly against this. The amount of muck which this govt is facing due to that mechanical MII Lion and jobs is tremendous. They have to kick start some program to show case as the success of MII but there is none so far.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  6. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Possible but hard to believe. Production chain is already full for next years.
     
  7. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    PESA radar for the soviets.
    USA used quite directly (on fighter) the AESA tech.
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    First of all, please don't generalise, when you only mean Dassault! There are not bad French or bad Indians, but some bad people.

    Secondly, with the SE tender pushed by the government, there is simply no more prospect for Rafale in IAF, than up to 36 optional orders.

    We know that the total medium class requirement is 200 to 250 fighters, including the 36 x Rafales we already bought. So additional Rafale in small numbers will reduce the potential SE numbers, that an Indian SP like Tata could produce.
    The question then is, will the government allow 18 to 36 more Rafale, or will they save the money and invest it completely into the SE order and their real Make in India project, the SE SPM?

    Up to 36 x Rafale as an option is currently the best chance Dassault seems to have, since the naval order is less likely on technical grounds and without combining IAF and IN requirements, there is no scope for a Rafale licence production anyway. So if they now aim to get the only realistic order, that's not greed but, bound to the ground realities, that they messed up to get the larger deal and now have to take what is left.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
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  9. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    http://indiandefence.com/threads/iaf-in-a-crisis.62642/page-2#post-578909
    Seems that SE is not very interesting, it will take long long....long time for the deal to be agreed by India :rockroll:
     
  10. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Are you telling us that India will have only 72 Rafaels and that there will be no make in India for the Rafales. All the requirements for the MMRCA & medium weight category jets would be fulfilled by F-16/Gripen? Which means they will replace all Mig 21 and Mig 27 along with Tejas.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Even if we would take unnamed sources with questionable figures to account, who said that will be an issue for the government?

    Their aim is to get the fighter numbers, with a licence production, according to their new policy, with tech transfer and ideally with lower costs. They purposely delayed several procurements, just to implement the SPM, so delays are unfortunate but necessary from their point of view. That's why the PM made the PR deal for Rafales to calm down IAF and the media a bit.
    Delays are certainly not their problem, as long as they get what they want.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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  13. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    You cant be serious! I dont think the IAF will settle for F-16 and Tejas to guard our frontiers. Neither of the two jets offer any advantage vis-a-vis china or PAF. Tejas has serious limitations aerodynamically, number of weapons it can carry, fuel and distance it can cover, EW and MMR. On the other hand, we have a 70's era design, with a mediocre MMR, no IRST, cannot operate in higher reaches of the Himalayas, a below average avionics, sensor package compared to Russian and European jets, limited fuel capacity and range, inferior BVR missiles and US control. It is now evidently clear that we need to build capacity for a two front war. How do we expect to counter china with F-16/Tejas/Su30/M2k/Jaguar/Mig29. Of the jets listed majority of the MIG29 have serious issues with availability and with only close to 59 Jaguars being upgraded to Daren III which are only good for single role. On the other hand the FGFA program seems like a distant dream.

    Looking at the picture above, it is evident that we need at least 5-6 bases with Rafales. IF we are to deter China from any kind of Mis-adventure in the near future this is the bare minimum we would require.
     
  14. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    It's known that LM won't offer full ToT for F16. SAAB cannot provide full ToT as it doesn't have IPR for everything in Gripen. What does it lead to? Nothing. I guess only Rafale is the best option provided it parts with some critical ToT for a sizable order along with a good financial proposal.

    As far as single engine fighter is concerned we can involve the French for optimising the Tejas mk1a.

    Just my two cents...
     
  15. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    If it is not a concern for the government why is it so important to finalize the deal before the period when the good conduct code applies.
     

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