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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    All the reports you've read are correct.
    -We are getting more Rafales, 36 more right now.
    -The DM is correct. At the time, the contract was only for 36, not more. So the follow on of 36 more had nothing to do with what DM said. This follow on 36 may happen before Modi finishes the current term, so there's a lot of time.
    -There will be a TE MII after the SE MII has progressed. But there are too many factors that can stop that from happening, namely depressed economic growth.

    Our military is ahead because of imports. Our industry is way behind.

    If everything works according to plan, then yes. We will be a major regional power then. Only the US and China will be able to challenge us militarily.
     
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  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    :lol:
     
  3. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    SAAB is not alone in europe to have ground GaN Radar in production
    But Thales is alone in Europe to have airborne AESA Radar in production
    And all Band X GaN module in Europe compatible with airborne Radar are produce in the Franco-German company UMS having its plant in France.
    https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worl...oduces-ns200-multi-mission-radar-naval-forces

    http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-02-12/export-market-strong-thales-ground-radar
     
  4. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Some buzz from James Mattis Meeting (first few points)

    • Guaranteed sharing of approximately 70% components commonality between F16 Block 7F and F35s with a intended target to make it 75%.
    • This is the chief challenge as the specification of Block 7F is getting further upgraded for Indian needs and the sharing of technology for commonality parts is a challenge.
    • Rest of the technology which can be shared without any hassles is submitted by LM for due consideration which includes all present tech upto UAE block 60 and classified tech not pertaining to F35s.
    • The CFTs are getting further enhanced to reach a combat radii as needed by IAF
    • Globally F16 availability rate is around 70% (just a tad below it actually).
    • For India specifically a 75% availability rate as advised will be undertaken and a Performance based Logistics and Support deal is also being planned to meet it stringently.
    • About Investments for full fledged Line transfer (every process) from Fort Worth to Indian TASL, some suggestions include
      1. Sharing costs between two parties GOI-IAF & TASL-LM for full line transfer and the whole chain
      2. This will lead to minimum production rate of 3-4 F16s per Month from TASL
      3. Also it will showcase commitment from India and its seriousness to facilitate full transfer of the ecosystem
      4. Need to strengthen the IPR regime and the proprietary tech to certain vendors who are part of teh supply chain,
      5. In such places, a 74% stake to be held via US entity is envisioned
      6. Technology for local MIC includes -
        • On board Central Pedestral Display
        • Improved Programmable Display Generator
        • Common Color Multifunction Displays
        • CPU and core technology behind them
        • Slots kept free for more core additions which can enhance and give additional performance of the system upto 50% based on multiple new scan systems taken from F35s
        • APG-83 SABR Air cooled AESA radar with terrain following, Radar common data link and ISAR (inverse SAR)
        • APG-83 is Northrop product so can be shared completely if the commitment for India is clearly there. (including all codes and software behind)
        • Complete software codes for all hardwares onboard
        • Targeting system for A2A and A2G - whole process of hardware, software and countermeasures
        • etc
    • Mattis also stressed this whole F16 ecosystem will become global hub for all spares, upgrades and orders and USA will leave the whole F16 ecosystem with India only.
    • Mattis also stressed that owing to commonality of 70% between F16 Block7F and F35s and targeted 75%, it will lead to easier transition to F35s at a later stage.
    • Mattis also clarified that Block 7F is superior to Block 60 by a big margin owing to F35 tech. The block 52s that IAF knows inside out of Singapore AF is further behind.
    • Mattis also emphasized that PAF operated F16s is entirely different and generation behind the Block 7F. In terms of capability, the present 7F is more than twice then what Block 52 so PAF F16s are further beyond the curve.
    • Its also added by a LM representative later that A2G mode of APG 83 can scan upto 290 kms and A2A mode is roughly 180 km for a 3m2, ~120km for 1m2 based on various factors and IRST will track in the range of ~80km
    • DM NS said the same will be evaluated and considered as per the quick process planned
     
    nik141993, Ironhide, IAF Fan and 18 others like this.
  5. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Why do i get the feeling that he Just saying what needed to be heard - JUST to get ahead AND let say the 'deal' does go ahead - he will then say "I Didn't say that" and will then present a list of strings attached to the deal
     
  6. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    That's a pretty serious offer.
     
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  7. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    There is somthing wrong with the range of Radar if the range is 120 km for 1 m^2 it has to be 1.316*120 for 3 m^2 that is to say 158 km. I think they try to minimise delta with the RBE2 AESA Range
     
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  8. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Cost of the deal is missing...

    Will it be at least less than 75% of Rafale deal ?

    Weapons package ?

    Apg 83 will be better than Saab offer / Israeli GaN radars ?
     
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  9. Bloom 17

    Bloom 17 2nd Lieutant IDF NewBie

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    I get a feeling this is the end for tejas and future amca
     
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  10. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Don't think so.
    http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2017/05/10/saab-globaleye-in-production/
    Besides where is this thales airborne GaN radar anyway?
    Great. We will buy it from them till we make our own.
     
  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Boeing has power to turn off planes say British military chiefs

    A trade row with Boeing could result in the US aerospace company “turning off” Britain’s attack helicopters, military transport aircraft and a planned fleet of submarine-detecting planes, sources said last night.

    The Ministry of Defence is buying 50 Apache AH-64E helicopters and nine P-8 maritime patrol aircraft from the US government. It already operates a fleet of C-17 transport aircraft and 60 Chinook helicopters. All the aircraft are built by Boeing.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-planes-say-british-military-chiefs-l9x9bm53k

    Interesting :rofl:
     
  12. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    The numbers LM state anyways will get validated by IAF and they wont get swayed by claims.. of course cant say much if the political deal goes through.... there radar comes with +/- 60 degree sweeping zone for 20 targets..

    OTOH Rafale RBE 2 AESA radar - sweeping zone on record is +/-70 degree for 40 targets
    1m2 detection range at 160 km, 3m2 - 220 km and 5m2 -300 km and IRST @ 120km for IAF specified version
    It will get further upgraded with GaN and F4/4.2 upgrades with usage of higher power and better detection algos.

    The challenge is active sources detect 0.1m2 around 110-120km at par with IRST detection range. (Rafale case). not overtly relevant now but in a decade it will be relevant a lot more.. So the upgarde F4/4.2 matters a lot from taht perspective.

    Make it 0.01m2 and it drops to almost 75 km - again detection range of RBE 2 AESA

    The challenge in future will be with active cancellation and EW induced signature reduction. Thats where the issue will come. Bcz a alert detection of a incoming bogie by ground based long ranged radars or say airborne radars ~300 km, followed by a sortie preparedness in 3 mins and climbing to say 15000 feet in 2 minutes will leave limited range left - Mach 1.2 incoming bogie, detection range will be less than 180 kms easily .

    Now consider a situation if the incoming bogie has suppressing abilities and have more of 0.1m2 or even lesser towards 0.01m2. The ground based detection or airborne itself will be limited or far lesser than before..so the whole scenario changes..

    We also need to understand that detection range means nothing if the engagement rings and Probability of Interception (success rate) is not deemed enough for a mission.

    It is this part where we need to understand why F16 radar system is adequate for their (USA) kind of infrastructure versus ours where Pakistan breadth is around just ~150 kms. and incoming bogie leaves limited scope. And yes they dont have anything which is 1m2 or less...(except missiles may be)

    OTOH of course any bogie from East side barring perhaps J20 with suppressing /cancellation abilities (to be demonstrated) , this same issue will plague many. Thats why MKI radar is basically a blessing with its monster detection range... and AESA upgrade will serve well.. But again MKI wont be in forefront.. it will be deeper so first line of detection wont be MKIs..



    Cost is still under evaluation based on what we consider in packaged deal. The sharing costs for line shifting is pretty big.

    GaN radars...
    Bro we dont have any foundry to make it here in India.. it will be relvant when IISc R&D centre for foundry is up and running and some industry major decides to invest on GaN foundry in India. Till then all talks of GaN tech is pretty much useless.. The foundries are mostly European and American controlled...

    Saab giving us is like saying you are booked for a holiday for 3days 2 night package deal only to pay for the deal when you are checking out from the hotel. Its not all inclusive types.. You might get an operational GaN radar when its made and validated but to access it and make it, the cost is not something Indians are even aware about....

    TBH Bro, we should talk about GaN may be 5-6 years from now.. once our own research is done or atleast progressed a bit within our country.. Till then we are deluding ourselves..
     
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  13. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    One of the exact reasons why India should never go to US for goods. They will destroy Indigenous capacity. Canadians hate the way US forced them to adopt their jets citing commonality and price factors. Now they dont have fighter aerospace sector to talk of. Israel is another example. BJP govt will be doing treason by selecting any frontline US fighter jets. Period.
     
  14. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Pretty stupid to believe that Americana will sell us any F-35 tech despite our close relationship with Ruskis. IMO Block 70 is just euphemism for 'downgrade export to India' just like P-8I.

    However I still have an open mind to an F-16 purchase. People are clearly underestimating the power of political influence Americans still carry and in the end nothing comes free. We just need everything written down and signed. Although Americans don't seem to understand that international laws apply to them just the same as to those they preach. Oh well, at least we won't have to worry about our secrets being sold off to their next buyer unlike some others.
     
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  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It is for this reason that I am completely against every kind of American equipment in our armed forces. Inducting US equipment is like becoming a slave of America. They will decide whom you fight and how.
     

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