Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

Tags:
  1. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    India does not have a frontline fighter except for Mig-21Bison. LCA is still far off.
    Your views about RCS and how it changes the interception matrix is what I had written in detail in LSA thread also. The way forward for India will remain Stealth only even though it will become useless after two decades. But any target which is detected later, will have that much more advantage due to higher surprise and reduced reaction time to counter it. An aircraft with just 0.01 sqm RCS using stand off PGMs can virtually remain undetected in today's AD capabilities of even most advanced nations. Active cancellation or EW stealth comes in much later. The first requirement is stealth. IMHO, using a combination of L-band AESA radars with IRST is a better solution for an interceptor than X-Band AESA and IRST. Once you detect a target on IRST, you just need to know if the guy is within the missile range or not and for that L-Band AESA is best. We now have even AESA based missile seekers which allow for a large air space to be covered and reduce the chance of a target escaping its detection and lock on zone.
     
    surya kiran and PARIKRAMA like this.
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    This is certainly true, but one has to understand that the ecosystem means the assembly line of the F16 that would be diverted. The issue is, will the production of all the subsystems be diverted too, because only that guarantees larger amount of work to supply the assembly line. The LM line alone now only has a few 100 workers.

    And that's pure BS if he said that. The radar might get to such levels of commonality to the F35 radar, but other than that, they don't share much. Airframe, engine, IRST (of Block 60 compared to IRST mode of EOTS) and the gun are completely different, cockpit, avionics and EW are also not comparable today, but could at least be upgraded later.

    F35 tech seems to be a marketing slogan now, just as MII, both distract from the reality at hand.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  3. Metrology

    Metrology FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    27
    Country Flag:
    Sweden
    http://m.aviationweek.com/technology/innovation-laureate-raytheon-and-saab-gan-galvanizers

    SAAB has gotten industry recognition for its work in GaN-radars. Also the US seems to have conducted espionage against SAAB with regards to Erieye. Both good grades I'd say.

    I read somewhere online that SAAB is using some pretty nifty algorithms on the new Erieye. Tailored towards detecting VLO it seems. They claim to be able to track something as small as the periscope of a submarine. I would suspect that statistical processing of the output from several sensors would go a long way in detecting and tracking VLO. After all, RCS is band and angle dependant...


    http://saabgroup.com/sv/Media/news-...satter-ny-standard-for-flygburen-overvakning/
     
  4. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    Am I the only one who thinks SAAB is merely being propped up as a 'competitor' so that GoI isn't constantly questioned about handing over such a big deal to US without any tender?

    The SE MII is 90% political and maybe has 10% tactical value at best. Evidenced by the fact IAF does not want it, especially not at the cost of Rafale.

    SAAB/Gripen was never going to be a real competitor. This whole deal is being done with strategic/geopolitical aims and relationship with US in mind - Even if Saab has better/more advanced tech & ToT to offer than Lockheed/US companies it won't matter because it's not the tech GoI wants - it's the strategic partnership with US they want. Definitely there's no question of having a SP with Sweden which is largely a neutral country and has little to no influence on matters pertaining to India/Pakistan/China/IOR.

    I would see this as a concern rather than an interesting opportunity because SAAB has recently signed a deal to supply 3 brand new Erieyes to Pakistan.

    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @vstol jockey @PARIKRAMA @Hellfire @Agent_47 @Sancho @MilSpec
     
    Art90, surya kiran, madmax613 and 6 others like this.
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    The F-16 is not being handed over to the US on a platter. It has to fight and beat the Gripen fairly. As I told @Hellfire in the rifle thread, it is the forces that decide this stuff.

    IAF is not going to decide on equipment they have to use for the next 40-50 years solely because a govt that will not exist after 10 more years at best wants to buy something else for political brownie points. Forget the forces, even the MoD bureaucracy will not accept it.

    The F-16 has to cross all the hurdles the IAF has placed in front of the aircraft and only then can the govt get to play with it. Meaning, the govt will have an opinion only after it has been shortlisted.

    Btw, the SP will be an Indian company. The parties are OEM(Saab/LM), Indian SP and the two MoDs.

    Also, you can't fault Saab for selling equipment to Pakistan. Pakistan is a bigger partner for Saab than India is as of now. We can dictate stuff after we have big ticket deals with them. We should be happy that PAF is forced to opt for western stuff rather than the junk the Chinese are obviously offering to them.

    Even if the US loses the F-16 deal, there are plenty of other projects that are just as important, namely the future helicopter program and perhaps even an infantry vehicle program. There's always UAVs.
     
  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    The tender is not political, since it's based on the same operational and industrial requirements, as the former MMRCA. All that changed, is the number of contender and the procurement policy.
    What we don't know yet, is how much political influence the selection process might include. While that didn't played a role during the MMRCA, the PM and the government are known for such deals by now.
    And the IAF want the SE as shown with the long list of IAF officials that bags it. They need numbers of medium class fighters, not necessarily numbers of Rafale, although they would have prefered a single type though.

    There is no strategic partnership to the US, but to a specific Indian privat player in 4 sections. The strategic partner model, is about selecting an Indian company, that in this case would be responsible for the fighter production and maintenance, over the coming years, if not decades.

    Yes it is of great concern! PAF already is ahead of us wrt AWACS coverage, thanks to the procurement of appropriate numbers of AWACS. If they at some point also get GaN upgrades for their Erieyes, or even worse, Saabs latest EW systems, we will even be technically outclassed.

    One more reason to buy the Gripen E:
    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-168#post-576640
     
    Gessler likes this.
  7. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    That's not a reason to buy Gripen. That's us being held hostage.

    If we buy Gripen it should be on our own terms, not because we want to draw Sweden away from supplying stuff to Pak.

    Besides, Sweden is a highly neutral country and even if we buy Gripen I seriously doubt we can influence them into antagonizing Pak. If PAF has a requirement and is ready to pay for it Sweden will most certainly supply them GaN Erieye/other radars at the same time as supplying to us. If we already bought Gripen and Sweden then supplies highly advanced tech to Pak, what will we do? Cancel the deal, junk the Gripens and buy some other SE jet? No way either IAF or MoD will be ready to sit through that circus yet again.

    Sweden will definitely not take sides between us and Pak. That needs to be remembered BEFORE even discussing Gripen.

    +++

    That said, I'd say the Phalcon EL/W-2090 is a highly capable system and delivers all of IAF's present requirements very well. I'd venture to say Israel makes the most advanced AEW systems in the world.

    But the concern is that there does not seem to be a clear path of development from here: how capable can the AWACS-India radar be? Can DRDO keep up with radar tech developments?
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    It would be on our terms, based on operational and technological superiority to the F16. But we would be silly to not use the deal for political leverage as well, to close or at least limit an important supply line to one of our enemies. That's why it "adds" to the already available advantages.

    They have changed their arms export policy recently, to not sell to undemocratic countries, like the Gulf countries. So all we need to do now, is convince them, that Pakistan is run by the military and doesn't really have a democratic government rule and that obviously is easier, when you have leverage.

    They do, but having just 3 of them doesn't get us anything, when the IAF requirement is for at least 15. That's like having 1 F22, when you actually need 100s of fighters.
    So we already messed up the situation and can't afford them to getting even further ahead.
     
    Gessler likes this.
  9. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    2,357
    @Sancho, do not be mistaken. Software upgrades, taking into account RETEX can be extremely valuable (sometimes more than hardware). e.g. resources allocations management depending on threat perception.
    So is it easier to do it using GaN modules? Certainly yes.
    Do SAAB know how to build GaN based lare radars? Yes
    Fighter radar? We have absolutely no clue. Except on pretty models.
    Thx to @Metrology to emphasize the importance of algorythms...
     
  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    I never said they wouldn't be valuable, especially for RBE AESA, I think IAF will appreciate additional A2G modes, but it doesn't increase the base performance of the radar as such.
    RBE 2 AESA was developed early, because the PESA was inferior or hardly a match to other puls doppler radars. So when other fighters get AESA now too, RBE 2 needs to increase it's performance again, to stay ahead!

    Same goes for SPECTRA, where even the Russians are offering similar, partially even better capabilities today. But without proper hardware upgrades, SPECTRA can't remain ahead and the benchmark that it was for roughly a decade.

    You pointed out yourself, that Gripens EWS (Arexis) seems to offer active cancellation now too. We now that it's RWR and jammer are GAN based and it's not too much to assume higher performance compared to the GaAs based counterparts in Rafale or?

    DDM NG remains with it'a blind spots, while Saab already had 4 sensors and now with PAWS 2 might add even 6 at least for the Brazilian version.

    Add the fact that they now even can offer escorts jammers to potential customers and you have a new European benchmark wrt fighter EW and that mainly, because SPECTRA wasn't upgraded properly. It still remains to be a great system of course, but Rafale lost one more major selling point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    Even the Cassidian-DARE HBJ for Su-30MKI has GaN based jammers. They are now going to increase its jamming capability to about 0.1GHz. It is presently fit for D-J band or 1GHz - 18GHz.
     
  12. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    8,328
    Likes Received:
    6,264
    Country Flag:
    France
    You just don't understand the design to cost approach of the French.
     
  13. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    2,357
    Newly designed isn't it?
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    Yes, under flight trials with IAF now. Next step is active cancellation. We are setting up our own GaN foundary and even the research in niobium is being expedited.
     
    PARIKRAMA and Sathya like this.
  15. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    2,357
    So, newly designed deserve GaN module i agree. However, ifone can reach its operational requirements for cheap, why bother and not wait a little more due to regularly going down prices of GaN modules?
     
    PARIKRAMA likes this.

Share This Page