Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

Tags:
  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,181
    Likes Received:
    6,295
    Don't worry. Bharat Karnad will come out and say $45B again.

    The Gripen is about 70-75% of the cost of the Rafale. And it doesn't require IAF-specific customization because Brazil is already paying for it, TARGO, new cockpit, Litening, Reccelite etc.
     
  2. AllStirFry

    AllStirFry IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    4
    Country Flag:
    India
    I kindly request the Gurus here to shed clarity of the now cancelled MMRCA tender profile. Specifically what the 12B figure was for?
    1. Was 12B the Govts initial budget for 126 aircraft, knowing that the customizations, weapons, base costs, training and spares and maintenance were to be extra?
    or
    2 Did the Govt was willing to just pay 12B and the tender was for interested makers to provide 126 aircraft and all the extras within that amount?
    So many politicians/journos ignorantly/intentionally compare 36 for 8B and 126 /12B and try to paint a corrupt/nepotistic pic of the current administration.

    Thanks
     
  3. migflug

    migflug FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    122
  4. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    1,491
    Country Flag:
    France
    INDIA would have choose the same helmet and laser pod than Qatar....
    No need of a new cokpit : the existing one is perfect.

    Now compare load and range of the two planes and say me if it's in the range of 70, 75% ....
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,181
    Likes Received:
    6,295
    Nope. Not a good idea for us. The Israeli stuff is way better.

    All the changes we want done has already been funded by someone else. Gripen's cockpit was a weakness, and Brazil has funded its development, that's what I'm talking about.

    It only has to fulfill minimum MMRCA requirements. Anything beyond that will be unrealistic for India anyway.

    For example, let's assume Gripen's empty weight is 7T and fuel load is 3.4T. And we know Rafale's is just about 10T and 4.7T of fuel. The Gripen's fuel fraction would be 0.33 while Rafale's is 0.32. So both have similar fuel fraction. Now bring in two bombs and four missiles, it's all we need, the fuel fraction won't change a lot.

    I have considered only internal fuel fraction because that's the only thing that counts. Unlike where ADLA operates, IAF will have to carry only enough bombs that we can drop and run away or fight when the Chinese come to intercept. So the only thing that matters is internal fuel and minimum A2A loadout. Anyway, if you bring in external fuel also, the fuel fraction is similar at 0.5 for both.

    In a Sino-India conflict, turnaround time will be more important for MMRCA aircraft than range and payload. Major air bases are only 120 to 200Km away while forward bases are less than 100Km away from all the fighting.

    We have requirement for 300+ MMRCA aircraft. If we consider Gripen fulfills only minimum MMRCA requirements and Rafale fulfills maximum requirements, it makes sense to split the order into two for the sake of both cutting costs as well as creating competition within the industry.
     
  6. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    8,265
    Likes Received:
    6,243
    Country Flag:
    France
    Turnaround time for Rafale is the same as for Gripen.
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,181
    Likes Received:
    6,295
    Exactly. So why pay 20M more when both are so similar at minimum requirements?

    Honestly, I would like to see IAF buying 36 F3R and 36+18 F4 only. This will give us 4 operational squadrons + 18 aircraft as reserves and for TACDE. And a joint development of Rafale NG with MII, with AMCA using the same electronics.
     
    sunny6611 likes this.
  8. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    304
    The budget sanctioned by GOI was in Rupees, not dollars. Viz. 42000Cr. Which was $10.4 billion at the time.

    This was in 2007 with Rupee @40 per $$ and climbing. In 2007 we also signed up for $50mn MKI addon (albeit as per CAG, the 140 MKI that we signed for in 2000 ultimately came out to cost $70mn per copy:wacko:). Costs of our final selectees was already in the $80 mn range at this point. Others were and are cheaper. I am sure no one anticipated then that total costs for aircrafts would be so much higher or that evaluation would take as long as it did.

    But the point to be noted is that the MKI 'deal' at the same time only displays flyaway costs. That means they still hadn't moved on to life cycle costs as they would for future deals.

    Which is why I personally believe that MMRCA sanction was only for flyaway.

    At any rate, Rafale deal is/was stupid and a tremendous waste of treasury. The only plausible way it makes sense is if the government had already planned to buy Americano all the way back in 2015 which is possible given this statement

     
    Sancho likes this.
  9. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Country Flag:
    Afghanistan
    Donald Trump is a stupid, stupid man who hasn't understood yet that trade deficits with everyone is the price they have to pay for making the dollar the international trade currency.

    It's pretty simple really. Countries need dollars to trade because dollars are the international trade currency; dollars are produced exclusively by the USA, so the USA have to export dollars to other countries -- and so the USA have a trade deficit in dollars. If they want to fix that, they can either accept that the dollar ceases being the international trade currency (moving on to the euro, yuan, whatever; or perhaps a return to the gold standard), or they can accept that other countries can print their own American dollars. Since neither options are likely to be remotely acceptable to the US, they will have to keep getting trade deficits with everyone.

    A four year old child could understand that. Run out and find a four year old child, Trump can't make head or tail of it.
     
    Gessler likes this.
  10. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,643
    Country Flag:
    India
  11. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,643
    Country Flag:
    India
    The answers to the questions I asked Shiv come in at 10:15

    Q. "What is the scope, if any, of incorporating a 'Safranized Kaveri' turbofan in F-16 MLU for IAF in the distant future? This engine is in dev"

    & "Also, what's the quantum of non-American weapons & equipment Lockheed/US Gov is open for integration on IAF F16s? Like Meteor, Astra?"

    Basically, they're saying its too early to say regarding how the IAF F-16 will evolve. But provided the techs are compatible, Lockheed will work to make the F16 as much customized as IAF wants to it be.

    In short - just the kind of answer we expected. :coffee:
     
    Sancho, PARIKRAMA, Hellfire and 3 others like this.
  12. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Country Flag:
    Afghanistan
    "We can't make you any promise but we don't want you to think it can't happen."
     
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,181
    Likes Received:
    6,295
    "Give us money and we will think about it."
     
    Grevion, PARIKRAMA, Hellfire and 3 others like this.
  14. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    643
    Country Flag:
    India
    SAAB AND ADANI GROUP JV TO PRODUCE UAVS, MILITARY COPTERS
    SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 05, 2017 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS
    [​IMG]
    SAAB Skeldar V-200 Maritime UAV

    In September, SAAB and the Adani Group had announced a collaboration in defence manufacturing. A joint venture between Swedish defence giant SAAB and the Adani group is looking at producing a broad portfolio of products including UAVs and helicopters for the Indian Army


    New Delhi: A joint venture between Swedish defence giant SAAB and the Adani group is looking at producing a broad portfolio of products including UAVs and helicopters for the Indian armed forces, besides eyeing a billion-dollar deal for supplying fighter jets to the Indian Air Force.
    Asish Rajvanshi, head of the Adani Group’s Defence and Aerospace division, said the joint venture was focusing on developing “foundational capabilities” to produce a wide-range of products in the aerospace sector for the domestic as well as export markets. In September, SAAB and the Adani Group had announced a collaboration in defence manufacturing entailing billions of dollars of investment and said the joint venture would produce Gripen military jets in India if it won the single-engine aircraft deal.

    [​IMG]
    Chairman and Managing Director of SAAB Group’s India operation Jan Widerstrom too said the JV was not only eyeing the lucrative fighter jet deal but also looking at other areas. Rajvanshi and Widerstrom said the joint venture was aiming at building unmanned aerial vehicle (UAVs), military helicopters and various other aerospace components and equipment with a broad focus on developing a world-class ecosystem for the aerospace sector in India.

    “If Gripen does not happen, it does not matter. We have started the journey of building foundational capabilities...We will pursue the UAV programme, the helicopter programme,” Rajvanshi told PTI when asked about the future of the JV if it did not get the fighter jet deal. The government is set to start the process soon for procuring a fleet of single-engine fighters for the IAF and US defence firm Lockheed Martin will be a major competitor for SAAB for the deal.

    The fighter jets will be produced jointly by a foreign aircraft maker along with an Indian company under the recently launched strategic partnership model which seeks to bring in high-end defence technology to India. Official sources said the the RFI (request for information), kick-starting the acquisition process, will begin “very soon”.

    In May, the government had unveiled the strategic partnership model under which select private firms will collaborate to build military platforms such as submarines and fighter jets in India in partnership with foreign entities. Widerstrom said SAAB was excited about the Indian market and was looking forward to the implementation of the strategic partnership model.

    “There is a need to shape it in a way that it focuses on enabling the strategic partner to build up a long term sustainable capability rather than specific business oriented capacity,” he said. The government has been focusing on strengthening the capability of the IAF.

    In September last year, India signed an Euro 7.87- billion (approx Rs59,000 crore) deal with the French government for the purchase of 36 Rafale twin-engine fighter jets. The IAF was keen on a follow-on order of 36 additional Rafales. The supply of Rafale jets is scheduled to start from September 2019. Sources said the IAF would start receiving a fresh fleet of 36 Sukhoi jets from 2019.


    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/11/saab-and-adani-group-jv-to-produce-uavs.html
    _________________________________________________________

    Seems Saab is serious & here to stay..
    Wont mind seeing highly capable Rafale & Gripen flying in Indian colours.
     
    Sancho, PARIKRAMA, Gessler and 2 others like this.
  15. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Country Flag:
    India
    Take Backs

    1) Really Good set of questions asked
    2) Note- the Timeline for the RFP isn't clear ie they too not sure then it is
    3) Any member can pls briefly mention to why the F16 failed the MMRCA tender - These very issues are not mentioned by them , pretty much left not answered
    4) Lots of ifs and ifs - everything hangs on this RFP
    5) 12,000 service hrs - True?
    6) Note - everything need the approval of the US Govt/Congress
    7) Tiptoed the question regarding our friends next door
    8) Initially Tiptoed the question regarding the LCA and AMCA -Then Mr Horward gave a better answer


    All Nice and Shiny marketing answers - No actual Substance or new information from what was already discussed
     

Share This Page