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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. Metrology

    Metrology FULL MEMBER

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    10 min in air to air config with a crew of six?
     
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    3 - Very poor flight performance. Old technology airframe and engine. No future.
    5 - Yes. But 4000 hours are added through life extension. So it's pretty normal. M-2000 is also good for 11000 to 12000 hours. Life extension can be expensive.
    6 - Yep.
     
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  3. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=...T-144-ES.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1Xdfv5pGr1DBk5oO1hQZpl

    Page 87 of 533
     
  4. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Precisely the way to go!

    These JVs should be made to be profitable regardless of whether they get local orders or not. If the get the SE deal, jackpot. If they don't, they should at least be in a position to take advantage of local production facilities, lower labor costs etc. in order to build their other equipment for sale throughout the world.

    The Skeldar is an excellent concept. I personally foresee the Indian Navy having a sizable requirement for VTOL UAVs post-2020. As will other services that need aerial surveillance but don't have access to airfields. Like NDRF or even ICG and various CAPFs. SAAB-Adani should be in a position to roll out future versions of the Skeldar (tailored for local environment & mission capabilities if needed) and other UAVs from their own plants, and produce them exclusively in India for global sales.

    [​IMG]
    Skeldar on a Spanish Navy OPV (testing)

    :confused:
     
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  5. AllStirFry

    AllStirFry IDF NewBie

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    Thank you @The enlightened, makes sense to me as only a budgetary cost for flyaways, although I do not agree on Rafale deal was stupid/waste of money :)
     
  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Keep in mind that the media speculations were based on the figures for the original MRCA tender, for M2K-5, Gripen C/D, F16 B52 and the Mig 29. They were cheaper than the fighters proposed in MMRCA, so the government knew that the budget needed to be higher and we had confirmations from IAF officials, that the MMRCA budget was cleared. So the budget itself was not the issue, but the fact that the shortlisted fighters were the most costly in operational terms and that only the minimum of 126 fighters might had been procured.

    The limitation to SE MMRCAs, now allows the government not only to cut a new evaluation process, but also to keep procurement and operational costs in a range to order more fighters.

    After the Rafale deal, we were 90 MMRCAs short of the minimum requirement, we already know, that the SE tender is aimed at a minimum of 114, so IAF will already have a higher medium class number the planned before and with an Indian production line, it is likely that the numbers will go up.
     
  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I was disappointed, because he didn't asked about important capability issues (how the inferior Block 70 should comply with IAFs requirements, when the Block 60 was offered in MMRCA, what the status of the IFR probe is and what change of performance that will make for the Block 70), just that he didn't followed up on questions, where the LM officials obviously just deflected from real answers.

    That's because the changes in the process, since this tender falls under the SPM. RFP would be issued only after shortlisting, but the whole SPM is still in the early days, so there are a lot of uncertainties.

    Officially no contender failed, MoD just shortlisted the 2 most suitable to IAF and the tender requirements. The problem now is, that LM is not offering the B60 anymore and that the B70 in fact is inferior, so what will play a bigger role now, IAFs operational requirements, or the focus on low costs in the SPM? That's where the government can push their agenda!

    Yes but it has no relevance, because they are giving that figure as a standard response to any question regarding the age or the weakpoints of the design.

    They have to, they can't admit that PAF can upgrade their B52s to the same B70 standard, by changing radar, some avionics and cockpit displays, because that's all the difference.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
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  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Nice find! I was curious about which helicopters Adani officials were talking about and this makes a lot of sense! In fact it's a pretty good niche for Saab and Adani, since there is not much competition in that segment of VTOL UAVs.
    Adani also has a JV with IAI for UAVs, which could hold good prospect.

    Seems like they have made pretty good decisions about their partners and the products they want to offer.
     
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The last HAL produced MKIs.
     
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  10. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    It may be a good segment for them to get started in Defence/Aerospace but them being a strategic partner in SE segment doesn't make sense to me considering they have never even tightened a screw before. What do you think?

    Mahindra aerospace / L&T would be a better choice.
     
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I see it the same way and always hoped for TATA as the SP in the fighter / aviation field, because they already have the required know how and infrastructure.
    Adani started with big promises (own air Base to test and certify fighters and UAVs) and I'm still curious if they will be able to deliver, but what we see so far from them, is not too bad at all.

    1) Good JV partners from different countries and for different segments of the aviation field

    2) Building up the Indian Ecosystem for Gripen E, just 2 months after they teamed up with Saab, TATA haven't done this yet (?) and even DRAL did it this just a few months ago.

    3) Close relations to the PM and we have seen how this has helped them already in several deals, just as Ambanis. So this factor can't be ignored either.


    So we have to give it to them, that they show good efforts, even if they are the underdog.
     
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  12. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What ecosystem are you talking about? I don't get it!
     
  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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  14. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The industrial ecosystem.

    Airplanes are extremely complex machines, made up of thousands upon thousands of components, each of which have extremely stringent quality requirements. This is even more true for military aircraft, which have additional requirements of including advanced weapon systems, powerful sensors, and being able to endure extremely violent maneuvers such as a 9+ G turn.

    Building these things requires large investment in production machines (because one guy banging on a sheet of metal with a hammer is not reliable enough as a construction process for modern aeronautics) and in training for the workers. You need very qualified workers using advanced machines to craft you the components you need. And let's go back to the thousands of components: you need different companies for different component types. So you need an "ecosystem" where you have hundreds of companies that, together, can provide you with the components you need to build an aircraft that respects today's standards.

    And India does not have that yet. That's why the Rafale deal had a requirement for 50% offsets in aeronautics, and that's why for the single engine deal they insist on the same. Once India gets enough companies populating this industrial ecosystem, then they will not have to depend on imports anymore, which will be good for India's economy (defense spending is extremely expensive, so it's better if that money doesn't leave the country) and sovereignty (Indian defense will not be as vulnerable to international pressure if suppliers are domestic instead of foreign).
     
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  15. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I understand what ecosystem you guyz are talking about and I also understand the importance of it. I know they are planning it but there is nothing on the ground as of now and that too constrained to SE orders and this was my question.
     

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