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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    This guy always say the same thing on all forum. :hitwall:


    his record is scratched. :treadmill:
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Well we know that data link, comm and IFF systems would be customised, like we do it with all fighters. It needs to be seen what deal Brazil made with Sweden and Israel, for the global supply chain. They have the advantage of get in the Gripen E project early and benefitted a lot, by including their requirements and gained design know how as well. Basically, the same deal we aimed on with FGFA, be we even messed that up. :frown:

    If Israel has separate deals for India and Asia, we could get the same stuff produced in India, that they gave Brazil too:

    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-216#post-583629

    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-260#post-595667
     
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  3. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Single engine fighter jet procurement hits air pocket, faces questions
    MANU PUBBY 24 November, 2017
    [​IMG]
    The F-16 manufactured by Lockheed Martin | Lockheed Martin
    Defence ministry is concerned about restricted competition, potential single vendor situation that could spark a scandal.

    New Delhi: The air force’s single engine fighter procurement has hit an air pocket with the government raising questions on why the selection should be based on the number of engines and not technical capability of contending jets.

    The air force has been facing probing questions from the top defence ministry bureaucracy that fears a potential single vendor situation given that the competition will be limited to only two global vendors. Both these vendors were rejected in an earlier round of procurement on grounds that they didn’t meet technical requirements.

    The debate took off after the air force officially moved the single engine jet procurement under the new strategic partnerships model that would involve setting up a new fighter production line in India.

    Sources have told ThePrint that the defence ministry is not yet convinced with the air force argument for breaking up its requirements into two parts – a new single engine jet line and a different double engine jet programme.

    Sources in the know said that a few rounds of communication have taken place between the air force and the defence ministry prior to a planned Request for Information (RFI) that will kick start the procurement.

    The American F-16 and the Swedish Gripen are the only two contenders in this race. But if the engine requirement is taken off and selection is to be made only on capability, it opens up the field to more contenders, including the MiG-35, Eurofighter, F-18 and Rafale.

    A very cautious bureaucracy is aware of two on-going Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) inquiries into recent defence deals that have taken the premise that bribes were paid to favour the selection of one foreign vendor over the other.

    “We do not want another AgustaWestland where the CBI thinks that specifications were tailored and tests rigged in favour of the Italians,” a senior South Block source told ThePrint.

    While the single engine procurement has been talked about for the past several months, a formal decision to go ahead will have to be taken by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman. Before demitting office, her predecessor Manohar Parrikar had been vocal in his support for the procurement but the process for approvals was not moved.

    The defence ministry’s official strategic partnerships procedure does mention fighter jets as a priority project, but does not specify the number of engines as a selection criterion.

    Several unofficial “white papers” are doing the rounds within the defence ministry that bring out potential problems that could emerge as the procurement progresses, in particular the fear that the competition will result in a single vendor situation.

    One such paper points out that one of the points on which the American F-16 was officially rejected during the last round of selection in 2011 was that the air force termed the aircraft incapable of further upgrades due to a lack of growth potential.

    As potential to upgrade is a key requirement as the planes will be used for the next several decades, the paper argues that the selection therefore is being moulded in favour of the Swedish competitor.

    While there is a lot of work ahead – from the official tender to selection and financial scrutiny – the fighter jet deal has evoked sharp interest. The two competitors have already tied up with Indian partners. Saab, which makes the Gripen, has announced the Gautam Adani group as a partner, while Lockheed Martin that makes the F-16 has selected the Tata Group.

    The long road ahead includes the selection of a project management consultancy by the defence ministry to scrutinise the financial and technical capabilities of Indian companies that will apply for strategic partner status to make the jets.

    https://theprint.in/2017/11/24/sing...-procurement-hits-air-pocket-faces-questions/

    MMRCA redux lol..

    The answer is not Gripen as Manu Pubby thinks..

    If the TE also joins in teh fleet will become divided between Rafale and Mig35 in FW bases
     
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  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    SE and TE requirement were always separate and should continue to be separate. The TE MII will go through a tender as well, so it's not specific to SE alone.

    The govt should give up on a SE tender for now and focus on the TE tender. Once TE MII negotiations begin, they should start the SE tender.
     
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  5. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What if all this is a ruse to avoid a tender and execute a G2G contract for F - 16's with the US under their FMS programme ?
     
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  6. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Very much possible to build up the story.. same like making now all agree that beyond Tejas there should be another SE jet bcz there is a "gap"
     
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  7. W@rwolf

    W@rwolf FULL MEMBER

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    Where does the Mig-35 come in all this? If you mean the TE MII competition, the Rafales would still have the advantage to get re-selected based on performance, costs as well as fleet commonality over the others.

    The issue with the SEF, i think, is that IAF wants the Gripen while GoI is pressuring them to buy the F-16s. But both need to undergo modification to clear IAF trails apart from including IAF-specific customization like the IAF did for Rafales. But the problem is who will share the developmental costs?
    For Rafale, since it was a GTG deal, we had to pay for the customization. But since the SEF is a tender, they need to add the capabilities before they send them again for trials. That mean the developmental costs will have to be added to the airframe costs, which could be causing the problem. I guess, Gripen needs less modifications compared to F-16, thus making them L1. Hence the govt would have no other choice other than to declare Gripen the winner, which is what they're trying to avoid.

    So the govt might be considering to do another 'Rafale'!
    By asking IAF to justify the need for another SEF, they could imply that the LCA numbers wont be anything close to a substantial force in the near future, putting the IAF at a disadvantage. Hence justifying the need for another GTG deal for F-16s.
     
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  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    LOL

    That, my friend, is the classic nail on the head.
    But expect this to be somewhere after General Elections. The slow pace of HAL ramping up production of LCA and the loss of two more squadrons over the next year will create an 'urgency'

    :D
     
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  9. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    No, TE and SE requirement was never separate for GoI. Please be clear on that.
     
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  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    We all must trust the ability of IAF to wreck its aircraft.
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The 36 new Rafales will squeeze into that requirement.
     
  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    It is less to do with IAF wrecking the aircraft but more to do with the GoI doing the same.

    IAF has, somehow, stood by the LCA project inspite of conditions wherein, had it been a private player, penalties would have been levied.

    I have already addressed this issue earlier, of how IAF was willing to accept a LCA with 53 permanent waivers of the ASQR of 1985 of critical nature in 1993, yet the HAL failed to deliver.

    It is only so long that one can keep flying clearly dangerous equipment and risking lives as HAL fails to deliver. Even now, any other private entity would have ramped up the production capacity to expedite the delivery of IOC and then FOC so that it could show itself as being oriented towards delivery of contracted equipment expeditiously.

    But no, not our HAL. This is where the suspicion points to deliberate maneuvering in GoI to scuttle the program now.

    PS: 02 x Sqn are to be retired shortly. I am not talking of attrition here.
     
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  13. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    I like that 'squeeze' .... or 'jugaad'?
     
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  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    TE and SE were always separate. The question is how they will come in and in what numbers.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...gine-jets-this-month/articleshow/60958656.cms
    Dhanoa said IAF is giving priority to the single engine fighters as the twin-engine fighters will cost more.

    "Right now, we are concentrating on the single engine so as to make up the numbers with lower cost," he said. The IAF currently has 33 fighter squadrons against authorised strength of 42.

    The IAF chief, however, said the force has requirement of twin engine jets as well.

    I had put up the explanation for how IAF is justifying their procurement in this post:
    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-292#post-607621

    To summarize the post:
    LCA and Gripen will replace all the Mig-21s.
    Rafale will replace all the Mig-23s and Mig-27s.
    FGFA will replace the Mig-29 and M-2000.
    AMCA will replace the Jaguars.

    As for how we are going to finance it, that's not going to be a problem, we are going to get really rich really soon due to the power of compounding. In the next 8-10 years, we will add as much to the GDP as we did in the last 50. As long as Modi comes back for a second term, in 3 years we should be able to sign $10-20B in new mid to long term deals every year. After 2027, we should be able to sign $20-30B in new mid to long term deals every year. Our procurement scale can start matching the US and China by then.

    Speculating here: With the way things are going, Rafale MII will start with the IAF's order of 36 in a second tranche and IN's order of 57 Rafale-Ms. In case IN doesn't choose Rafale, even then Dassault can initiate MII with just the 36 because they will be assured of new orders as and when the IAF's "urgency" pops up. :biggthumpup:

    So you can either expect a tranche order of 36 jets every two or three years even without an official MII program or a proper MII program of 90 jets after the SE MII is sealed. The former has greater possibility because it can be done with the GTG agreement alone, while the latter requires a proper tender and the works.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    @Hellfire

    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-292#post-607580
     
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