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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Okay your optimism wins :)

    Lets wait and watch
     
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  2. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
    Rude Awakening for F-16, Gripen: India May Opt for Twin-Engine Fighter Jets

    The Indian Government wants to widen the scope for competition among global players by removing the “single engine” criteria to avert a controversy as only two manufacturers have so far expressed interest in the tender.

    New Delhi (Sputnik) — India might do away with the engine criteria for the planned purchase of over a hundred fighter jets for its air force, widening the scope of competition among foreign vendors supplying both single-engine as well as double-engine fighter crafts.

    Highly placed sources told Sputnik that India's defense ministry wants an open fighter jet contest like the earlier deal for medium multi-role combat aircraft wherein the main criteria would be the technical capabilities of the jet not the number of engines. The new development has come as a rude awakening to American Lockheed Martin and Swedish Saab who were keenly anticipating a tender specifically for single engine fighter jets making the F-16 and Gripen the front-runners in the $10 billion deal.



    [​IMG]

    Last year in October, the Indian defense ministry had sent letters via Indian embassies to global manufacturers asking them whether they would set up a production line in India for a fleet of single-engine fighter jets in partnership with Indian firms. Responses were received from Lockheed Martin and Saab which offered to set up production lines in India for manufacturing the F-16 and Gripen respectively Now that the scope for twin-engine fighter jets is likely to be accommodated, the contract will witness a larger contest where twin-engine jets like the MiG-35, F-18 and Rafale could also participate.


    "The government has not started any formal process for the proposed jet deal…not even finalized the request for information. The Indian Air Force always wanted a more capable fighter jet and if the government does away with the number of engine criteria then definitely twin-engine manufacturers will have the upper hand," Amit Cowshish, former financial advisor to the Indian defense ministry told Sputnik.

    The 2007 medium multi-role combat aircraft contest, also based on capability and not the number of engines, had six fighter aircraft: Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35, and Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Four years later in 2011, after detailed evaluation, the contest reduced the bidders to two fighters- Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale as others failed to meet the criteria.

    "The Gripen and F-16 were not able to pass the technical criteria set out by the Indian Air Force in the 2007 MMRCA contest, this time they have likely to come up with better preparation to beat the technical parameters," Cowshish added.

    Nevertheless, these developments have definitely dealt a blow to single-engine jet manufacturers that have already linked up with Indian partners and have even started deliberations with suppliers. Swedish defense and security firm Saab has linked up with India's Adani Group — a new entrant in the field of defense aerospace, while in June of this year, Lockheed Martin from the US had intended to join hands with India's Tata Advanced System to produce the F-16 Block 70 in India.

    "The open competition without mentioning the number of engines may be the end of the road for single-engine jet makers as they are unlikely to compete with twin-engine jets," Cowshish said.

    Earlier in October, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa had categorically stated that the emphasis on single-engine fighter jets was a cost-cutting attempt whereas the Indian Air Force actually desired twin-engine jets.

    "Right now, we are concentrating on the single-engine so as to make up the numbers with lower cost. There is a requirement for twin-engine fighters down the road, but engines are "30% of the cost" of a twin, versus 10% of a single," Dhanoa had said.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201711251059424956-f16-india-twin-engine/
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Source is Sputnik News

    Ofcource they would want to inject cheaper Mig35 to SE equation too. I wont mind whoever comes in India be it awesome Gripen E or Mig35, whichever plane is more capable in trials & willing to share 100% Tech & MII in India.
    Though
    Rafale is best plane (my vote for Rafale in TE MII)

    Anyway high lvl Indian ministries like home minister Rajnath Singh and foreign minister Sushma Swaraj will be in Russia for back-to-back visits from Sunday for a 3 day & 4 day visit respectively.
    Hope FGFA progresses too in Heavy section...
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The reason I'm optimistic is because Dassault has far too many advantages.

    For example, after the first deal, the second tranche became inevitable because IAF ordered enough infrastructure for 72 Rafales.

    And considering the inevitable delays with LCA and any new tender, the Rafale has the advantage of being the first choice for "emergency procurement" because of "immediate operational readiness".

    To take advantage of this, Dassault is most likely going to start MII of the Rafale with the second tranche of 36, possibly making it the first MII program.

    The fact is the situation is really, really convenient for Dassault. With the possibility of the first squadrons of LCA Mk1A and Gripen being pushed to 2023-24 and 2025-26 resply, the IAF has 6-8 years, possibly more, for these "emergency" requirements to pop in many more times.

    Advantage 1: After 2020 the only active production line we can have at short notice is Rafale's.

    Advantage 2: IAF will face a severe shortfall between 2020 and 2025 even considering the new order of 36 MKI and the 2nd tranche of 36 Rafales will be the only ones ordered this decade. There is wriggle room for a 3rd tranche or at least the options of the second tranche.

    Advantage 3: LCA Mk1A, Mk2 and Gripen are delayed to as far as 2025 on average. We will be phasing out 200 aircraft before 2025 with no replacement in sight by then, except for the Rafale.

    Advantage 4: MKI's upgrade is very expensive, pushing the actual unit cost to beyond the Rafale's, making it even more expensive.

    Advantage 5: Rafale's superior air to air capabilities over the MKI will become evident to the thick bureaucrats before 2021 when the IAF starts receiving exercise data.

    Advantage 6: The security establishment, the air chief, the navy chief and most importantly, Doval, support the induction of more Rafales.

    Advantage 7: PAK FA/FGFA delays.

    Advantage 8: Modi will want to protect the jobs that were created from what could potentially be India's first major MII line.

    Advantage 9: India's economic recovery. Although this is a plus point for all the alternate jets, only Dassault is in a position to actually use that advantage.

    Advantage 10: The navy choosing Rafale-M. This will make a full fledged MII line feasible by combining the navy's requirement for 57, IAF's second tranche of 36.

    That's way too many advantages for one type of jet. The three biggest advantages being 2, 4 and 9. During the M-2000's time, the IAF was not facing a severe draw-down (had a surplus in fact), its only competitor was half its price and the economy was going down the drain.
     
  4. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Agree with you on all points except Advantage 5.
    MKI is a more capable Air-Superiority aircraft, MKI may have some higher maintenance issues, but its not lacking in Air-superiority.
    Rafale is better aerial reconnaissance, in-depth strike and nuclear deterrence missions.

    Everyone will agree, there is marginal difference between Typhoon & Rafales (rafales being better). Lets revisit last faceoff between Su30MKI & RAF typhoons in 2015 where SU30MKI annihilated Typoons.
    "Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons in 1 Vs 2 faceoff, the IAF jet emerged the victor 'shooting' down both 'enemy' jets."

    https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger...ked-the-typhoons-12-0-in-british-skies_382281
    http://www.defenseworld.net/news/13...r_to_the_Eurofighter_And_Rafale_#.Whlg4EqWbIU
     
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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The reason why Rafale has the advantage is because it has superior technology. The Rafale's radar is better, the FSO is better, it has a full fledged EW suite, it is equipped with MAWS.

    Rafale demonstrated superiority over the MKI in BVR exercises in India.
     
  6. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Not aware its true, honestly be great if can share report of such an exercise, but even if that is the case, it would be at best, short term advantage in Air-Superiority, if considering MKI Super upgrade pack, which may come delayed, but will come none the less.
    Rafale true advance is in Air-Interdiction & Stealthy Deep Strike & Nuclear Deterrence missions.
    MKI & FGFA are primary Air Superiority Platforms.
     
  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Interesting. Source?
     
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  8. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It did happen but it was due to the restrictions put in place like max range for BVR shot was just 25Nm. This gave a very clear advantage to Rafale FSO over SU-30MKI. SU-30s have engines which can be seen from even front aspect and that too from very large distances. So Rafale was able to spot SU-30MKI much earlier using its FSO.
     
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Yes sputnik is always reporting from a Russian point of view and needs to be taken in that regard.

    Exactly, the minute we get the upgrade, most advantages of Rafale in terms of radar and EW will be gone. The RCS reductions, will play even further in it's favour, which basically leaves MICA and Meteor as an advantage over R73, 77, Astra and the TV channel of FSO.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Or maybe because MKIs doesn't use their proper radar modes during exercises. :azn:
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    @vstol jockey

    I had read an article a few years ago that quoted French pilots saying that their M-2000s held the advantage against the MKI in BVR even though the MKI's radar was far superior. They said something akin to "radar detection isn't everything".

    Of course, there would have been more restrictions against the MKI during such exercises, but the Rafale's AESA is definitely superior to the MKI's PESA and the MKI's only supposed advantage against Rafale is the radar. Basically, even without EW, the Rafale will detect the MKI before it is detected itself.

    Naturally, the Rafale's weapons are better.

    I had mentioned about the upgrade, advantage 4.

    The problem with the upgrade is, we can't buy new MKI with the upgrades already installed, we can only buy the old MKI and then upgrade them 20 years later when they come up for MLU. As for the upgrade itself, it is very expensive. They are saying the upgrade package is $6B for either 50 or 80 aircraft. That makes it more expensive than the Rafale.

    However you are correct about MKI and Rafale being aircraft with two different classes and the air chief has also given the same argument for why the MKI and Rafale cannot replace each other. But I am trying to counter Hellfire's argument that MoD will claim both MKI and Rafale are twin engine and hence are the same.
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    @Hellfire

    There's also this:

    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/...-the-world-air-chief-marshal-denis-mercier-2/
    As far as I’m concerned, I can tell you about the Rafale at the operational level. This is my role as Chief of Air Staff. I know what we have achieved and what we continue achieving with this aircraft. I know all its qualities, I know what it can provide over and above all other existing operational fighter aircraft, which don’t have the same level of integration for all missions types, which don’t integrate all sensors to the same degree, which don’t mesh with networks the way the Rafale does.

    The MKI scores a big fat zero on this one. So does the LCA Mk1 and Mk1A. But this is what you call 5th generation.
     
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  13. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Again ... source? Because if I am understanding correctly, you are subscribing to BVR exercises involving the two aircrafts, which needs to be sourced and remains fundamentally flawed as in no exercise has IAF opened up its Radars and Jammers when a foreign pilot is around.

    Also, if you are hinting at an Indian pilot flying Rafale against Su-30, then am keen on source of info and location of said test.

    Disclaimer: My recheck of this info is current and real time with those involved. Hence am asking.
     
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  14. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Source? I am keen on source.

    @PARIKRAMA and @nair this is interesting. My ‘Gang’ is intrigued.
     
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  15. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Again, source the Big fat zero.
     

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